Bards appear to struggle in D&D because they have no obvious role in combat. In non-combat oriented FRPGing I've never had any trouble incorporating characters whose schtick is dealing with people, performing for them (either mundanely or using magic, typically illusions), outwitting and gulling them, etc.
D&D General If D&D were created today, what would it look like?
Bedrockgames
Legend
One thing I would like to see, and maybe this was done somewhere and I forgot or didn’t see it, is giving bards a class ability to grow the party’s reputation in a meaningful way. I noticed players who play bards seem to love coming up with songs, poems, etc often about the party. I think taking that energy and building a class feature around it would be cool. Also giving bards their own fame, which could give them things like court access that other players might not have
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
And even when they did, it was purely as support (thinking of the 1e morale-boosting abilities Bards had) rather than as full-on participant.
Indeed, the more emphasis you put on the "social pillar" of the game the more relevant a Bard potentially becomes.
Well if this AUD&D is it's 0e or 1e, then with classes you are trying to guess which fantasy characters will be:
Who am I missing for the "book 1"?
- Popular in 2021 and decade before
- Could form in a D&Dless world
- Don't fit in a generic Fighter/Rogue/Wizard skeleton without needing a boatload of houserules
- Could be adapted to a Medieval setting
- The Gandalf
- The Conan and Fafhrd
- The Aragorn
- The Dread Pirate Roberts, Musketeer, and Jack Sparrow
- The Harry Potter
- The Jedi and Anime Samurai
- The Goku/Kenshiro
- The X-men and The Bender
Who am I missing for the "book 1"?
Ruin Explorer
Legend
It isn't really minimal, no.
What you're seeing is evolution. The initial influence of D&D on anime was obviously largely in the 1980s, when directly and indirectly it hit anime extremely and that influence only continued and increased into the 1990s (my namesake, for example - so as I you can guess this is something I know a thing or two about). And then there's the indirect influence - which is JRPGs, all, without exception, inspired directly or indirectly by either TT RPGs, or later, Western CRPGs inspired by TT RPGs.
And the way magic and combat tends to work in an awful lot of anime derives from anime that derives from anime that derives from anime that's based on D&D (using anime as a cover-all term to include manga and light novels of course here, sorry).
All? No.
Absolutely not. A lot of anime is inspired by other stuff - Super Sentai, science-fiction, mythology (esp. Japanese but also other mythology including Western and Indian mythology), or just stories that don't even involve many fantastic elements. Even the mythology stuff often leans on distantly D&D-derived visuals and so on. You're not going to get Berserk if D&D never happened, either, though you would get Fist of the North Star. Studio Ghibli isn't going to be any different. Porco Rosso or whatever isn't going to change. Howl's Flying Castle though? Hmmmm. It might - the basic story would probably be the same, given it's from a British fantasy novel from 1984, but I would be willing to be that, without any TT RPGs or CRPGs, the visual design of the castle and so on would be somewhat different (the movie is from 2004).
And again, yes, a lot of is quite different to D&D, even the fantasy stuff - but it's evolved. It wasn't as different 20+ years ago. Some of it was actually literally using D&D terms and so on back then. You have things like stuff that's based on an imaginary MMORPG though - and yeah that's not based on D&D, but if D&D didn't exist, it wouldn't exist - they might still have an MMOFPS, but the look, the style, what's going on in it, it would be very different. Final Fantasy is another example - that was based largely on Dragon Quest - Dragon Quest was based largely on Wizardry and Ultima. Wizardry and Ultima wouldn't exist without D&D. And early FF was pretty to D&D in terms of concepts, but modern FF? No - it barely has any visible relation to D&D.
I think what we'd see, fantasy anime would lean more towards Asian mythology tropes and styles. That would be kind of awesome, probably. And there'd likely be even more mythology-derived stuff. Western fantasy stuff might even become popular - I suspect adaptions of Western fantasy novels would be slightly more common. But it would develop differently, and you'd notice.
I largely agree with most of your well-thought-out take on this, except for these:
Yeah sorry I'm not making myself clear I think.Thieves, Assassins and Rogues have been part of both general and fantasy fiction since forever; I can't imagine a broad-based RPG that doesn't find a way to include them in some form. Yes there'd be some overlap with Swashbuckler (or Pirate), but if the Thief-equivalent was more about stealth and cunning and info/loot acquisition than about combat (leave that to the Swashbuckler) there's loads of room for it.
As for Bard: while the class has never really been implemented well mechanically thus far, I don't think it would go away completely - again due to the idea of the travelling minstrel or skald or lore-master being deeply entrenched in both general and fantasy fiction for ages. What we'd likely see is, as now, repeated attempts to make it work - and who knows, maybe one of them even would.
I'm not saying you wouldn't have a character who job was "Assassin" or "Rogue" or whatever. I'm saying that the D&D trope where they're no good in a straight fight and only even equally effective (or still less than) other characters when using tricks and attacking from stealth and so on would just not appear. It's not an archetype you really find in fantasy much. The you want three people who have and would call themselves "Thieves" in fantasy? You Fafhrd, The Grey Mouser, and Conan. Some serious BAD BOYS in combat. Like TROUBLE. None of them have to backstab. None of them have to faff around. They will backstab if it helps. They use to stealth to avoid combat where possible (they'd see it as dumb to do otherwise in most situations). But they're not slouches. They're not corner-hiders. They're not 1/2/3E Rogues. 4E Rogues? Yeah, pretty much. And 5E Rogues aren't nearly as tough in a straight fight as 4E ones, because they rely on sneak attack - these dudes might have sneak attack, but it would harder to get, and they'd be as good in a straight fight as other classes (ignoring serious special abilities - I'm sure Knights would be better at avoiding damage and so on). So I'm saying you wouldn't have this guy who is bad at fighting, but good at lockpicking. He just wouldn't exist. The PC-type "Thief" in fantasy is as competent a combatant as everyone else, he just has different non-combat skills/abilities. I suspect a "Commando"-type class might actually be the most common class - light armour, nasty fighter, nasty ambusher, good at sneaking, climbing, swimming.
Now if you're thinking of Bilbo, but that's not someone a class is going to be modeled on. Indeed, if this comes out in 2021, I absolutely do not believe halflings/hobbits will be in the PHB, despite the LotR movies (which will be pretty old by then). Definitely not if the Hobbit movies came out lol jeez ugh. They might have a short race that's a nod hobbits, but D&D's ones? Nah.
If we look at all the assassins in fantasy literature, all the backstabbers, the vast majority of them, absolutely the overwhelming majority of PC-type ones are total bad boys, like serious fighting-men. Not weaksauce types who'd be weak in a straight fight.
I think Skald/Bard would be similar - in mythology/mythohistory people are skalds are often extremely skilled warriors (and never less than competent if it comes up) and in fantasy literature sometimes bard types are too. So I suspect they'd be another "competent combatant with some side skills".
Loremaster I'm much more skeptical of, because I'm thinking back through pre-D&D fantasy particularly, and fantasy clearly not much influenced by D&D in later eras, and I can't think of a single "loremaster"-type who would be a player-character. They're all people who either enter the narrative, provide knowledge, then leave, or are in a set location, visited, and then the PC-equivalents go away. So I think that's a bit less likely.
Ruin Explorer
Legend
I don't think you'll have The Gandalf. I'm very sure of that. It's either him or the Harry Potter, and the Harry Potter can be young or old, male or female, but the Gandalf type is just an old, weird angel-man (soz Gandy I love you man). The Harry Potter-type class entry will say that Gandalf is one of them, though. Also he like, barely does any magic (in books he almost seems to do even less!). Nobody will want to be that dude in 2021. Not even with Ian McKellan as the archetype.
Also I think you maybe need to expand on what "the Aragorn" is. I don't think, god love 'im, the film LotR Aragorn will be something many people want to be, because he's well... sorry he's not very cool. And by 2021, the book-Aragon will be regarded the same way. But if we're talking some of kind of versatile warrior, with survival skills, maybe stealth skills, maybe a bit of a commando (because really, Aragorn kind of is), then yeah. Though maybe you mean something else?
Otherwise I think that's a pretty great list.
I do think maybe one think I overlooked was the like "vampiric warrior". Yeah vampire/dhampir will probably be one of the races, but I'd be very unsurprised if there was some kind of Elric-esque class people wanted - probably not book 1 material though. It's actually weird that D&D doesn't have this, because a lot of other things do (the closest it got was Anti-Paladin).
I think most/all characters by default being basically competent at HtH fighting and stealth is likely to be the case, though if they make an exception to HtH for anyone it will be the Harry Potter.
Naw. I Think The Gandalf stays as the Merlin class. It'll have access to all the spells but have the resources problem.
The Harry Potter will look a lot like the RWD&D's Warlock. You'd have more magical stamina but you'd have to choose which schools/colors you have access to.
The extreme end with be the Xmen/Bender who can count their total spells/powers known on one hand but "never" runs out.
With no D&D, the LOTR movies would be even bigger hits due to uniqueness and Gandalf and Aragorn might stand out. Although with no D&Dto guid it, The Aragorn might meld with Jon Snow and Aquaman by then and have more narrow powers.
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
There's a couple to maybe add to the list, on the warrior side:
The Legolas (nimble light-or-no-armour archer or sniper type)
The small-g gladiator (swords-and-sandals has had bursts of popularity since the 1950s and shows no signs of stopping)
The small-f fighter (using LotR comparisons, a cross between Boromir, Faramir and Gimli) as some people just want to hit things.
Scribe
Legend
Yes! Even the Hexblade is a pale imitation of what an 'Elric' class would be. I messed around with making a Class for it, but so much of it is spread around a bunch of classes/subclasses at this point.
I think all of those become the same class if AUD&D starts with Weapon specializations that the small-f fighter can choose from.
No Weapon or Armor Specs
- Fighter
- Knight
- Barbarian
- Legolas/RobinHood
- Swashbuckler
- Gladiator
- Shieldbearer/Hoplite
- Jedi/Samurai
- Martial Artist
- Aragorn/Snow
With Weapon Specs but no Armor Specs nor Alternate armor rules
- Fighter
- Barbarian
- Swashbuckler
- Shieldbearer/Hoplite
- Jedi/Samurai
- Martial Artist
- Aragorn/Snow
