Furn_Darkside
First Post
MeepoTheMighty said:
Furn mastered condescension years ago, get it straight.
*chuckle* It is tact that I am struggling to master now.
FD
If Harm is broken, what's the best house rule for it?
- Thread starter Tom Cashel
- Start date
*chuckle* It is tact that I am struggling to master now.
FD
ForceUser
Explorer
Nothing. Cure critical wounds is the final healing spell a cleric can spontaneously cast. Take a look at your PHB, under the description of Spontaneous Casting in the Cleric writeup:Xarlen said:
This means that a cleric cannot spontaneously cast heal or healing circle. They have to prepare it normally.
Lucius Foxhound
First Post
Really, though, a Wizard PC would probably much rather face a cleric with harm than a Wizard with Phantasmal Killer. Sure you get two saving throws with PK, but the touch range of Harm makes it really easy to get away. Plus, after he casts harm, just Dimension Door the hell out of there!
But against a big baddie with 300+ HP, well, Harm's awesome. Of course, at that level, everything's got spell resistance.
But against a big baddie with 300+ HP, well, Harm's awesome. Of course, at that level, everything's got spell resistance.
Xarlen said:
Either nothing or something like an empowered cure critical wounds. It's not a cure spell and thus can't be spontaneously cast.
I do believe that is why cure disease is now called remove disease.
Edit : Or you could go with Forceuser's quicker and better-researched answer.
Last edited:
Furn_Darkside
First Post
HeavyG said:
Rampant hijacking
My fault for mentioning save vs die along during the look at critical hits vs. harm.
FD
Harm needs a save. Think about it, and compare it to other Clkeric spells.
Slay Living: 5th-level spell, touch, save or die, save takes 3d6+X damage
Destruction: 7th-level spell, target, save or die, save takes 10d6 damage
Notice that both have saves, and both deal damage on a successful save, but only one requires an attack. Attacks are easier to make than saves in nearly every circumstance, so a touch spell with no save is more powerful than a target spell with a save.
Harm and Heal, being 6th-level spells, should fall between these two spells.
Being reduced to 1d4 hp, for all intent and purposes, is the same as death. The power of this spell isn't about NPCs using it on PCs, but rather a PARTY of PCs going up against SINGLE creatures of an appropriate CR, such as a devil, demon, or dragon. When a PARTY goes up against a single powerful creature, a common tactic is for Cleric to delay and Fighter to ready an action to attack after Cleric casts his spell. They have discussed tactics already and know the score. Cleric uses Harm, Fighter attacks and kills. Not INSTANT death, but that is semantic nonsense because I have yet in my years of gaming seen an enemy bounce back from Harm. That along says something.
You can't make decisions on the POSSIBILITY that the enemy could dodge or heal himself or herself, but rather on averages. On average, anything hit by Harm dies.
This is simply not right, seeing as it overpowers EVRY OTHER SPELL on the Cleric list except for Miracle and MAYBE Gate. Against single enemies, Harm is UNBEATABLE.
If you MUST keep the spell powerful, I suggest giving it a save and getting rid of the touch attack. If that doesn't work for you, keep the touch attack, give it a save, make it 5th-level instead of 6th-level, and make Say Living and Raise Dead 6th-level spells.
Here is my personal suggestion.
Harm
Necromancy
Level: Clr 6, Destruction 6, Drd 7
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will half (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes
Harm charges a subject with negative energy that causes the loss of all but 1d4 hit points. Upon a successful save, the subject is reduced to half of its current hit points.
If used on an undead creature, Harm acts like Heal.
To balance this with Slay Living, which now *seems* more powerful, simply give Slay Living AND Raise Dead casting times of 1 round. That should fix all problems.
Slay Living: 5th-level spell, touch, save or die, save takes 3d6+X damage
Destruction: 7th-level spell, target, save or die, save takes 10d6 damage
Notice that both have saves, and both deal damage on a successful save, but only one requires an attack. Attacks are easier to make than saves in nearly every circumstance, so a touch spell with no save is more powerful than a target spell with a save.
Harm and Heal, being 6th-level spells, should fall between these two spells.
Being reduced to 1d4 hp, for all intent and purposes, is the same as death. The power of this spell isn't about NPCs using it on PCs, but rather a PARTY of PCs going up against SINGLE creatures of an appropriate CR, such as a devil, demon, or dragon. When a PARTY goes up against a single powerful creature, a common tactic is for Cleric to delay and Fighter to ready an action to attack after Cleric casts his spell. They have discussed tactics already and know the score. Cleric uses Harm, Fighter attacks and kills. Not INSTANT death, but that is semantic nonsense because I have yet in my years of gaming seen an enemy bounce back from Harm. That along says something.
You can't make decisions on the POSSIBILITY that the enemy could dodge or heal himself or herself, but rather on averages. On average, anything hit by Harm dies.
This is simply not right, seeing as it overpowers EVRY OTHER SPELL on the Cleric list except for Miracle and MAYBE Gate. Against single enemies, Harm is UNBEATABLE.
If you MUST keep the spell powerful, I suggest giving it a save and getting rid of the touch attack. If that doesn't work for you, keep the touch attack, give it a save, make it 5th-level instead of 6th-level, and make Say Living and Raise Dead 6th-level spells.
Here is my personal suggestion.
Harm
Necromancy
Level: Clr 6, Destruction 6, Drd 7
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will half (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes
Harm charges a subject with negative energy that causes the loss of all but 1d4 hit points. Upon a successful save, the subject is reduced to half of its current hit points.
If used on an undead creature, Harm acts like Heal.
To balance this with Slay Living, which now *seems* more powerful, simply give Slay Living AND Raise Dead casting times of 1 round. That should fix all problems.
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
At the power levels Harm is available, Haste and Quickened effects are available too, and not just to Wizards. IMNSHO, Harm isn't a saveless insta-kill only in the hands of bumbling fools. Except for range it is quite superior as written to Power Word Kill. Range can be important but not enought to justify 3 levels difference in the spell.
Harm would make a perfectly fair 9th level spell, and I think that justifies installing a save for the 6th level version.
As for the argument that requiring a save weakens Clerics relative to Wizards, I say: Great!!! Clerics already have excellent tools for dealing with outsiders and undead, and they are adequately competent melee grunts to boot. I do not see that giving them a sure kill against everything lacking SR as being a plus to the game.
Harm would make a perfectly fair 9th level spell, and I think that justifies installing a save for the 6th level version.
As for the argument that requiring a save weakens Clerics relative to Wizards, I say: Great!!! Clerics already have excellent tools for dealing with outsiders and undead, and they are adequately competent melee grunts to boot. I do not see that giving them a sure kill against everything lacking SR as being a plus to the game.
