If I eliminate minions, what extra should I give controllers?

[Plane Sailing]

OK, I've been playing without minions for a while because it turns out that I like them in theory, but I don't like them in practice (and Thunderspire Labyrinth doesn't appear to have any anyway!)

However, I've noticed many people theorising that 'minion clearing' is one of the big roles of the wizard as controller.

If I eliminate minions, should I be giving the wizard something extra to do, or some extra capability?

(interestingly, as I was preparing this I reviewed the DMG information about monster roles, and I have to say that the PHB wizard looks much more like Artillery than Controller by the DMG monster definitions! But I digress)

Thoughts or opinions? Do the wizards just suck it up, or do they need something else to help them?

Cheers

 

[Zsig]

Like you, I like minions (alot) although only in theory, as in practice they never accomplish what I wanted them to.

Unless their main purpose is to clump the battlefield, they don't offer anything else to my games (except for free/easy exp).

Honestly, and if you allow me to give my opinion here, everytime I see someone saying "Wizard's role is to kill minions" it saddens me. I haven't seen a "real" wizard in play (both my experiences at seeing them in play sums up to one that won't do anything else other than spamming Magic Missiles, and the other is about a campaign that just began, so we didn't get to see it in action), so I can't quite say what Wizards are good at, but I've seen minions, and stating that Wizards' job is to kill minions, to me, is the same as saying Wizards are utter crap, less than luseless even.

After saying that, by removing minions from the game I wouldn't do anything to the wizard, and would play with them as is. Regardless though, if in the future I see there's too much difference in power among the Wizard and the other Controller classes (Druid and Invoker for instance), I might eventually try to bring the Wizard up with a few minor tweaks to some of their at-will powers (Sorching Burst and Magic Missiles to be more precise...maybe Ray of Frost as well).

 

[erf_beto]

(interestingly, as I was preparing this I reviewed the DMG information about monster roles, and I have to say that the PHB wizard looks much more like Artillery than Controller by the DMG monster definitions! But I digress)

Actually, if you take a look at the NPC/class templates, you'll see the wizard is in fact Artillery and the cleric is Controller. Monster roles and PC roles don't mesh, I guess...

Anyway, when I saw the thread title, I thought you meant ALL controllers, but given the limited info we have on druids/invokers, I'm not sure what could be done about them.

But I see you only mentioned the wizard, so I guess this is more of a wizard specific problem at the moment (emphasis on ATM). So let's fix him.

I suppose if you remove his minion clearing abilities (big area, small damage), you could improve his power selection in a case-by-case base. You could steer him a bit towards leader by making some new area powers that affect enemies only (like shooting a number of guided missiles instead of the typical burst/blast), or towards striker and make some one-target Ranged attacks with big damage (maybe not so much as the warlock's) and some added status effect, making him more "artillery".

I think wizards need more usefull encounter utilities for combat. More of those would be nice. I guess this will make the dailies seem less atractive, and it might have some unforeseen issues with the spellbook feature, but I'd feel more usefull to my group if I could use my powers more often instead of waiting for the right time (that might never come).

Another way to go is messing with his class features, and add a couple of new Implement Masteries to choose from (like Wand of Reach, Staff of "You Shall Not Pass" or whatever), or even some new implement proficiencies (it seems rods are good for dealing damage, it could have been a problem when he had all those enemies in those big bursts, but with single targets? not so much, i guess...)

Or you could improve the wizard's shtick: options. He already has cantrips and lots of rituals, but no extra combat usefullness. So, give him more at-wills and maybe say the spellbook works for them to: A wizard could have 4-5 at-wills to choose from and prepared 2-3 of them after an extended rest. Or maybe just let him have one extra at-will slot and prepare one out of 3 extra options after each short rest. It feels good to have the right spell at the right time, even if you do the same damage, you can choose an additional effect and the right element to throw against your foe's vulnerability.

Another idea I was toying in my head these days: make him the master of arcane spells. Let him multiclass as normal but use Intelligence when calculating the attack bonus of an arcane spell instead of its original ability modifier (attack but maybe not damage, perhaps with a paragon path or feat). Multiclassing into Warlock or Sorcerer would be fun. Hmm.... Perhaps an Archivist variant for divine prayers... But I haven't thought this through and it might be incredibly abusable, even though it already costs a lot of feats to multiclass.

I'm not sure this is what you hoped to hear and I'm sorry I don't have any solid play-tested house rule to invoke. I love the wizard class, but I also feel like it could use some extra lovin'.

 

[timbannock]

I don't think you'll screw the wizard over much. I would recommend tracking down Mike Mearls' posts about beefing up the Wizard's at-will spells (basically just adding a little effect or conition here or there) just to be sure, seems how they are minor tweaks but provide a little extra oomph to make the Wizard a little better at the whole Control schtick.

Whatever you do, don't do too much, because as long as the PCs fight more than a couple monsters who are close together during a battle, the Wizard will get his kicks. But I do agree somewhat that a Wizard excels against Minions, so taking out Minions completely should mean that you give a little something to the Wizard. Very little, but something nonetheless.

Mearls' comments should be in this thread, a few pages in with the "added effects" to Wizard at-wills:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/246993-mearls-controller-design-will-balance.html

 

[FireLance]

Why not give them a small rider effect whenever they use an encounter or daily attack power, similar to what the invoker gets?

You can even vary them by the type of implement mastery selected by the wizard:

Orb - Each target that you hit takes a -1 penalty on all saving throws until the end of your next turn.
Staff - Each target that you hit takes a -1 penalty on all attack rolls until the end of your next turn.
Wand - Each target that you hit takes a -1 penalty on all defenses until the end of your next turn.

 

[CapnZapp]

I think we will have to wait for Arcane Power.

I'd be disappointed if it won't have updated (and upgraded) Wizard powers.

I certainly hope it won't just have more and better powers - I specifically hope it will have new, improved, versions of the powers the class' already got.

 

[Cadfan]

Just to add a dissenting voice, I think the "minion clearing" thing is bigger in people's heads than it is on the table. Yes, wizards do kill minions pretty effectively, but I don't think that killing just one type of monster is such an important part of their shtick that you need to worry about it.

I think that minion-killing is a new thing, so it looms large in people's minds, but in-game its really just a small part of what a wizard does.

 

[Stalker0]

What to give controllers?

Anti-Depressant medication.

Sorry, couldn't resist

 

[Plane Sailing]

The guy who plays a wizard in my campaign has just quit the campaign over the felt uselessness of the wizard

Although having played a rogue before this, he says he finds everything in 4e too repetitive.

I hope to be able to find some way for making things work better for him...

 

[Falling Icicle]

I've played a wizard from level 1 to level 6 so far, and I'm having a blast. We rarely even use minions in our games. Sure, there are times when I use magic missile alot, but I've never felt useless to the party. The at-will cantrips are alot of fun, even in battle. I've used mage hand to disarm an enemy archer of his quiver of arrows. I've used ghost sound to imitate a boss's voice and really confuse his servants with false orders. I've used Prestidigitation to create the image of one of our party peeking their head around a wall, getting enemy artillery to waste their attacks before we charge in.

And with spells like Flaming Sphere, I really do pack a punch when I need to. I may not do as much damage as the rangers in our group, but that's okay, I have way more versatility. High damage and moving around are really their only tricks. That said, I can still dish out quite a bit of damage when I need to. I'm far from a pushover in combat. And as I gain levels and get more powers, it has become more and more fun for me.

I also strongly recommend picking up a Mnemoinc Staff from the Adventurer's Vault. It lets you swap prepared spells for a different spell in your book. This has made a huge difference for me in playing my wizard, as now I can often pull out just the right spell for the situation.

Also, I've amassed a large collection of rituals, which have at times been very useful. Unlike 3rd edition, where you were forced to choose between the no-brainer combat spells and the occasionally very useful ritual type spells, I now get to have both. I have so many more tools at my disposal now than I ever did before. Those types of spells used to just sit in my spellbook, unused. It wasn't because I didn't want to use them, but because the preparation system of previous editions simply didn't allow me the luxury. Yeah, rituals cost money, but most of the low level ones are quite cheap, and are cheaper than the scrolls I used to have to make just to have those spells available when they were needed!

Sure, the wizard class isn't perfect. There are a few issues I'd like to see adressed in errata sometime. But I would never throw a fit and quit playing over them. I've honestly had more fun playing a 4e wizard than I did in any previous edition of D&D. If your player isn't having fun as a wizard, perhaps he should try another class.