Pathfinder 1E If Paizo bought Greyhawk could they make their money back?

[Mycanid]

One possible line of Greyhawk products would be to develop the continuing history from the original modules. But history development on a much smaller, "localized" level rather than on a "meta" level. I think it makes the modules much more ... err ... transplantable to different locations without extra work. Kinda like the original Tomb of Horrors module, I guess.

Felon ... you have a point, of course. I think one of the appeals of the Goodman Games modules is that you can do precisely as you described.

But there seems to just be a fan base out there that likes the Greyhawk setting ... for whatever reasons.

Admittedly it is MY preferred setting, but that is simple taste on my part - I just plain prefer it. (Of course, I am one of those who thought the "meta story line" was ruined with the material they introduced with 2e stuff.... I would have preferred NO meta story line.)

I would be surprised if Wotc "gave it away" to someone. I would be delighted if someone there could infuse some new life into the whole setting while remaining consistent with what has gone on before. But I am not holding my breath.

I have tried to do this on a personal level with a module creation of some time ago that I have not heard back from Treebore on. I hope he didn't tear it up in frustration! Perhaps I will be able to make it publicly available to all as a freebie one day? That is my hope....

But I digress.

Back to the thread!

 

[Thulcondar]

I wonder what I'm missing out on here. Is Greyhawk really such a detailed and unique setting that it's really a big deal whether or not there's material specifically published for it? Because everything I"ve learned about it describes it as being a broadly-detailed generic D&D world. Why can't I just plop my Goodman Games adventure in Greyhawk and get the same net effect as playing a Greyhawk-specific adventure?

To my mind, the whole strength of Greyhawk is the fact that it is not so detailed. There's room for a DM to breathe. In the FR (for example), one is constantly under the threat that some quirky invention will be contradicted by some new incredibly-detailed supplement that comes out.

At its best, Greyhawk provided two things:

1) An over-arching framework, with not too much detail (kingdoms, rulers, sketches of history).
2) Very specific adventure locales (dungeons).

Note the missing element; the medium-scale supplement, which was the bread-and-butter of Forgotten Realms. While products such as "Iuz the Evil" and "Rary The Traitor" (both of which attempted to give overviews of entire regions of the Flanaess) were perhaps interesting, they most definitely didn't have the same "feel" as the rest of the Greyhawk material. Why? Because they were filling in the details which should, by rights, have been the DM's to fill in. If I had had a campaign centered around the Vesve Forest or the Bright Desert, I might well have been pissed off by such products, and rightly so. And the less said about Living Greyhawk the better.

(As an aside, I agree that "advancing the timeline" is a somewhat problematical effort; Wars was a ham-fisted attempt to wrench the setting away from the influence of Gygax, and it has shown. Put things back to the Gazeteer and let individual DMs take the helm.)

Give me a set of comprehensive source materials (full coverage of the deities and religions-- they're not the same thing, btw--, cultural information, etc.). Then give me dungeons. Make it non-version-specific (the astute amongst you will note my icon), or at least with conversion notes. If the commitment to the advanced timeline cannot be eschewed, then pick a couple of time periods (perhaps CY 479, 576, and 591), with either modules set in specific time-periods or with alternatives for each time period. The former would probably be easier than the latter.

Naturally, this approach won't happen, because the mdoern wisdom is that there are many more players than DM's, and thus products should be printed that are geared towards players. You'll sell 8 players handbooks for every DMG, and you'll similarly sell 8 Complete Fighters Handbooks for every Temple of Elemental Evil.

More's the pity.

 

[00Machado]

I'm a fan of the Greyhawk boxed set of 1983... it's probably the best boxed setting I've seen. I'd accept non-EGG material... but the whole "Greyhawk Wars" thing sucked so bad that it's probably a moot point.

I've never understood why people think it sucked, or felt so strongly against it. To not like it is one thing, or prefer the direction one took in their home campaign, but it seems like a lot of people really feel strongly about it.

From my point of view, the setting seemed more inspiring with the mess everything was in after the wars.

But, I wasn't very familiar with it beforehand.

I'm going to start a new thread to ask why people don't like the From the Ashes stuff, because now I'm curious.

 

[Jer]

Give me a set of comprehensive source materials (full coverage of the deities and religions-- they're not the same thing, btw--, cultural information, etc.). Then give me dungeons. Make it non-version-specific (the astute amongst you will note my icon), or at least with conversion notes. If the commitment to the advanced timeline cannot be eschewed, then pick a couple of time periods (perhaps CY 479, 576, and 591), with either modules set in specific time-periods or with alternatives for each time period. The former would probably be easier than the latter.

I kind of like this approach to Greyhawk material myself, actually. What I'd really like to see is a series of "campaign-sized" adventures set in Greyhawk with setting material built into the adventure - much like the Dungeon Adventure Path material has been but even more Greyhawk specific (and with the campaign-sized adventures being more like giant dungeons instead of many small interconnected adventures). If there needed to be overarching sourcebooks for the campaign setting I'd like to see them more like the Eberron sourcebooks like Secrets of Xendrick or the Explorers Handbook where things are left more vague and where there are a lot of small adventure sites and short encounters outlined.

And no advancing timelines. Greyhawk is a location-driven campaign world more than a story-driven one. Advancing timelines are great when you have some over-arching metaplot that is pushing the world along, but in a setting where the "metaplot" such as it is is performed by the PCs, timelines should advance according to the needs of the gaming group and not the needs of the setting designers.

Naturally, this approach won't happen, because the mdoern wisdom is that there are many more players than DM's, and thus products should be printed that are geared towards players. You'll sell 8 players handbooks for every DMG, and you'll similarly sell 8 Complete Fighters Handbooks for every Temple of Elemental Evil.

I'm not so sure. Wizards can't keep cranking out as many of these kinds of books as they have been - check out this year's releases. The common wisdom is also that Wizards makes a good chunk of their money from D&D off of sales of Player's Handbooks, and the best way to sell Player's Handbooks is to make sure that there are lots of things out there for DMs. I think the new focus on adventures (especially large campaign adventures) is a nod in this direction, and I'm curious to see where they take it. If it turns out to be successful for them, I could see them even taking it into the next edition of the game and mixing up the publishing of sourcebooks and adventures a bit more than they have been doing with this edition.

 

[Thulcondar]

Greyhawk is a location-driven campaign world more than a story-driven one.

Oooh I like that. Consider it Viked.

 

[Mortellan]

Most definitely. I buy more paizo than WotC these days. If GH went over to piazo, I could feel free of the corruption.

 

[Felon]

I dunno, it still sounds like much ado about nada. Why do I need product support for a setting that stands alone just fine? Ah well, to each their own.

 

[arscott]

To my mind, the whole strength of Greyhawk is the fact that it is not so detailed. There's room for a DM to breathe.

And that's exactly why Paizo would never make money with a Greyhawk License. Despite all the moaning and complaining about lack of greyhawk support, the fact is that nobody actually wants greyhawk books. They enjoy the setting because it belongs not to Gygax, not to Sergent, but to them--the DMs and Players. Any actual products (beyond, perhaps a single 160 page setting guide) would be badly recieved and branded Metaplot.

The only thing that will make money with Greyhawk IP is adventures and non-cannon tidbits, and Paizo's already found the best format for that with Dragon and Dungeon Magazines.

 

[Jer]

I'd really like to see some adventures with larger dungeons set in Greyhawk than what can be done in a single magazine article. Even the Adventure Paths tend to have many smaller location-based adventures strung together with an overarching plot - nothing to the level of a Barrier Peaks or Tsojcanth or a Keep on the Borderlands (yes, I know, not strictly Greyhawk, but a great location-based adventure). I do enjoy the Maure Castle levels that get published periodically in Dungeon, and Expedition to Greyhawk Ruins will be coming out shortly, but I'm greedy and I'd like to see some new places that have the same sort of feel about them.

But yes, overall, I think you're exactly right. A Campaign Sourcebook might sell quite well, and well-written, location-based adventures might sell well too, but that would be about it. You might also be able to get a "Player's Guide" that could be well accepted (especially if it was written in a form like the Eberron PG), and maybe a "Faiths of" book depending on how it was written, but that would be about it.

 

[GQuail]

And my answer would be because I already own most of that stuff from when it originally came out. I would love to have some NEW Greyhawk, please.

As others have said, the serious question has to be: what NEW products, exactly, do you want? What exactly is it you'd like to se brought out: adventures, splatbooks, region sourcebooks, what?

Since several people have complained in other threads that Greyhawk should not be treated in the same way as Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance with regards to products release (hence why From The Ashes seems to have such a poor history with some groups) I have to wonder exactly what you could bring out for that would sustain a line and be popular with the fans it would appeal to. Ultimately, I think Greyhawk might be healthier supported by Dungoen adventures and, thusly, the same sort of material that kept it alive for it's early years in modules.