If the devils are how monsters will be....I am so happy

[Thyrwyn]

For all the complaints that the stat block gives no information about the monster outside of combat, Irresistible Command tells you an awful lot about the heirarchy of Hell, and the exalted position pit fiends hold within it.

Also poses some neat in-combat RP possibilities - Pit Fiend Minions face an interesting quandry:
A) if the get too weakened (damaged) they are likely to be used as bombs by their boss;
B) if they hang back too much (are seen as not contributing) they are likely to be used as bombs by their boss. . .

 

[med stud]

And here is the problem.
Either the minions are still strong, then the irresistable command will not see much use as it is tactically better to let the devils live.

Not always. You are viewing this too black and white; there are always degrees of when something is tactically sound or not. Lets say that one PC is down to single digit HP at the start of the pit fiend's turn. Next round the PC could be healed or given an opportunity to attack or cast a spell. In that case it makes very much sense tactically to blow a minion up since you get rid of the PC at the same time.

Another case is if 4-5 opponents stand close to each others. By exploding one devil out of eight summoned the pitfiend deals between 8d10+20 to 10d20+25 damage. That's probably more than the sacrificed devil would deal on it's own.

Example nr 3: When the pit fiend starts it's turn, one of it's summoned devils are down to 3 HP and has already acted in it's turn. The pit fiend might as well blow it up.

The examples provided are applicable in certain cases; they are not as obviously useful as a meteor swarm but they still provide a large benefit.

 

[Derren]

Those examples are very specific and don't happen as very often. Certainly not as often as to justify the use of irresistable command every other round like in the tactics.

Case 1. Requires metagaming, also doesn't happen very often

Case 2. Only really feasible in the first round before teh PCs spread out.

Case 3. Happens more often than the other cases, but the question is if the legion devils are so weak so that they are only good as ammunition -> PCs ignore them and gang up on the Pit Fiend or they are still strong -> Irresistable Command won't see much use.

 

[Stogoe]

Why are people still assuming that Irresistable Command can only be used on its summoned legionnaires?

I guess it's just easier to build towers of paranoia and cynicism on top of incorrect assumptions.

 

[Derren]

Why are people still assuming that Irresistable Command can only be used on its summoned legionnaires?

I guess it's just easier to build towers of paranoia and cynicism on top of incorrect assumptions.

I don't assume this, but on what else should it use it on? The other Pit Fiend or equally strong monster which is part of the encounter? Certainly not as that would be a complete waste of power.

 

[Mad Mac]

Why are people still assuming that Irresistable Command can only be used on its summoned legionnaires?

I think people have done a good job of explaining how the ability can still be useful even with that restriction. But yeah, your average Lord of Hell probably has roughly 23 bajillion Lemurs to draw on for exploding purposes if needed.

The Pit Fiend could have a horde of weaker demons in the background, and it wouldn't even up the CR of the fight.

 

[Dausuul]

And here is the problem.
Either the minions are still strong, then the irresistable command will not see much use as it is tactically better to let the devils live.
If the minions are weak so that exploding them is the best thing to do then the PCs will likely ignore everything the Pit Fiend summons as they pose no thread and gang up on the Fiend.

Also the debuff only works for 1 round.

By this same logic, one should never sacrifice a piece in chess. Either the piece is strong, so it is tactically better to let it live; or if the piece is so weak that sacrificing it is the best thing to do, then the other player will ignore it and concentrate on your king.

In reality, of course, skilled chess players often sacrifice pieces, because there is a specific tactical advantage to be gained that outweighs the loss of the piece. And a chess player is exactly what a pit fiend ought to be. The minions are useful to have alive, but sometimes it's worth it to blow one up.

Those examples are very specific and don't happen as very often. Certainly not as often as to justify the use of irresistable command every other round like in the tactics.

Case 1. Requires metagaming, also doesn't happen very often

That PCs are in low hit points? You're a lot nicer to your PCs than I am to mine, then. It happens all the time in my games. As far as requiring metagaming... to some extent, but the pit fiend should be able to judge when an opponent is reeling and on the ropes.

Case 2. Only really feasible in the first round before teh PCs spread out.

That's assuming the PCs do spread out, and the other devils don't push them back together in some fashion. If nothing else, the mere threat can make life more difficult for the PCs, since they have to avoid getting clumped up.

Case 3. Happens more often than the other cases, but the question is if the legion devils are so weak so that they are only good as ammunition -> PCs ignore them and gang up on the Pit Fiend or they are still strong -> Irresistable Command won't see much use.

What? This makes no sense. The legion devils are presumably sturdy fighters, but not as tough as the fiend itself. I suspect they will have a higher offense-to-defense ratio than the pit fiend, making it profitable for the PCs to take them out first. Irresistible Command offers a way for the fiend to get a little extra out of them before they die.

 

[Stoat]

I don't assume this, but on what else should it use it on? The other Pit Fiend or equally strong monster which is part of the encounter? Certainly not as that would be a complete waste of power.

If my understanding is correct, an "typical" encounter assumes that the PC's will face four foes. The Pit Fiend, as an "elite," counts as two foes for this purpose. "Mook" monsters are the opposite. Four mooks count as one regular foe.

So, a bog standard, by the book encounter could include One Pit Fiend, Eight "mooks" and the eight Legionnaires that the Pit Fiend summons. That's 16 devils for the Pit Fiend to use as he pleases.

 

[Derren]

If my understanding is correct, an "typical" encounter assumes that the PC's will face four foes. The Pit Fiend, as an "elite," counts as two foes for this purpose. "Mook" monsters are the opposite. Four mooks count as one regular foe.

So, a bog standard, by the book encounter could include One Pit Fiend, Eight "mooks" and the eight Legionnaires that the Pit Fiend summons. That's 16 devils for the Pit Fiend to use as he pleases.

Theoretically yes, but the "mooks" the pit fiend gets besides his summons are of equal level and quite a bit more valuable than simply using it for a small explosion.
The Irresistable command power is fine for situations where a devil is very low on HP and will be killed next round anyway. But to recognize this situation requires metagaming on the DMs part.
Except from this situation using irresistable command is most of the time a bad idea as teh mooks are more valuable when alive.

 

[Dausuul]

Theoretically yes, but the "mooks" the pit fiend gets besides his summons are of equal level and quite a bit more valuable than simply using it for a small explosion.
The Irresistable command power is fine for situations where a devil is very low on HP and will be killed next round anyway. But to recognize this situation requires metagaming on the DMs part.
Except from this situation using irresistable command is most of the time a bad idea as teh mooks are more valuable when alive.

You're really stretching the definition of "metagaming" here. Why can't the pit fiend have a basic sense of how well his minions are doing? For that matter, why can't he look at one and see that it's got two swords stuck through its gut and is about ready to fall over?

I don't accuse PCs of metagaming when they make decisions on the basis of "my hit points are in single digits, I need to pull out of this fight." I wouldn't even accuse them of metagaming when they use the hit points of summoned monsters in making decisions. No, the characters don't know that they have 5 hit points left, but they know they're reeling from shock and blood loss, in no condition to continue the fight. And they can see when their summoned monsters are being pressed hard and about to lose.