If the devils are how monsters will be....I am so happy

[LostSoul]

I think one of my biggest problems with the pit fiend is that it doesn't actually have options. Or rather, it has 7 actions it can possibly take, but two of them are obsoleted totally by a third, one of them is always used on the first round as (effectively) a free action and is encounter recharge, and of the remaining four it gets to use no less than two and as many as three every single round.

I suppose that's the downside of multiple actions, but it still nags at me as annoying.

I think the Pit Fiend will have tons of options. Only a few abilities, but many options. I think that while running a Pit Fiend, you will focus on tactical positioning, and the difference between a tactically-skilled DM and a poor or average one will shine through.

 

[med stud]

Those examples are very specific and don't happen as very often. Certainly not as often as to justify the use of irresistable command every other round like in the tactics.

Case 1. Requires metagaming, also doesn't happen very often

Case 2. Only really feasible in the first round before teh PCs spread out.

Case 3. Happens more often than the other cases, but the question is if the legion devils are so weak so that they are only good as ammunition -> PCs ignore them and gang up on the Pit Fiend or they are still strong -> Irresistable Command won't see much use.

Answers

1) The opponent is off balance, staggering, is defenitly bloodied. I think it shows when someone is in their final digits, especially enough for an extremely intelligent creature.

2) Why would the PCs by defenition spread out? Fighter + Rogue combos are pretty common, as is all melee combatants concentrating on one opponent.

3) By the logic presented, a strong creature never reaches 3 HP. That isn't true and I think that's not what you intended to say. But lets bring up a scenario: One of the allies of the pit fiend gets ganked by fighter, rogue and warlord, all in melee. They deal a lot of damage but the devil reaches HP 5. The devil has it's turn before the pit fiend and attacks. Then, on the pit fiend's turn, the pit fiend uses Irresistable Command and deals 6d10+15 damage in total damage.

I don't quite buy into your counter arguments.

 

[Derren]

Answers

1) The opponent is off balance, staggering, is defenitly bloodied. I think it shows when someone is in their final digits, especially enough for an extremely intelligent creature.

You might handle it differently but I don't let everyone automatically know how many HP someone has. In 4E knowing when someone is bloodied is ok, but not more.

3) By the logic presented, a strong creature never reaches 3 HP. That isn't true and I think that's not what you intended to say. But lets bring up a scenario: One of the allies of the pit fiend gets ganked by fighter, rogue and warlord, all in melee. They deal a lot of damage but the devil reaches HP 5. The devil has it's turn before the pit fiend and attacks. Then, on the pit fiend's turn, the pit fiend uses Irresistable Command and deals 6d10+15 damage in total damage.

See 1.

 

[TwoSix]

You might handle it differently but I don't let everyone automatically know how many HP someone has. In 4E knowing when someone is bloodied is ok, but not more.

I think most people handle it differently. Not allowing players and NPCs to make tactical decisions based on remaining HPs will have an effect on player and NPC tactics, obviously.

 

[Eyada]

As mentioned earlier, any encounter against a Pit Fiend could theoretically feature swarms of extremely low level Devils that are too weak to ever injure the PCs in direct combat, but, in the presence of their Master, become a very serious threat. I think it's a great way to include low level monsters in a high-level fight and have them still be relevant enough for the PCs to even recognize their existence. After all, most of the descriptions for Devils mention "leading fiendish hordes" or something similar, so having such a retinue with any given Pit Fiend sounds perfectly reasonable to me. It provides more tactical complexity to the encounter while remaining thematically appropriate. PCs must choose between spending precious time eradicating the teeming Lemur horde in order to take away the Pit Fiends ammunition, or just bear the rain of fire as they assault the Pit Fiend itself.

Those little winged imps circling overhead that the players scoff at are only an amusing thematic background element until the Pit Fiend shows up to lay down the law in his domain. That's how I picture it, anyway.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Why are people still assuming that Irresistable Command can only be used on its summoned legionnaires?

I guess it's just easier to build towers of paranoia and cynicism on top of incorrect assumptions.

My thoughts exactly.

Irresistible Command becomes very efficient when there is substantial devil fodder milling around. Given the pit fiend's lofty political position, that would be the norm (unless you can force the pit fiend to come to you).

Now we have a flavorful tactical problem: Do you use your valuable Area Control to sweep up the mooks or harass the big guns? What countetactics can a pit fiend use with his tactical teleportation?

 

[Dausuul]

You might handle it differently but I don't let everyone automatically know how many HP someone has. In 4E knowing when someone is bloodied is ok, but not more.

See 1.

So, in your games, all wounds are invisible until you hit half hit points; then a bunch of wounds appear on your body; then further wounds are again invisible until you suddenly drop unconscious or dead?

I don't tell my PCs exactly how many hit points the monster has left, but I do let them get a rough idea of how badly hurt it is. That's only reasonable. Even if the pit fiend can't tell that its minion is in single digits, it can tell that the minion has three stab wounds in its chest and blood spurting from a half-severed limb. (Or, in game terms, it can tell that the minion went into Bloodied status last round and has taken several hits since then.)

I'm not suggesting that all combatants have a digital hit point readout floating over their heads. But it only makes sense that you could get a general sense of how hurt they are by looking at them.

 

[kennew142]

For years I've given players information based on what their characters should be able to discern. I've used the term seriously wounded to describe opponents who are below half their hit points and critically wounded for opponents who are about to drop (i.e. 10 hp or less). Obviously, this system works best for creatures with more than 20 hp, but it's worked pretty well.

This is the only information I allow NPCs to base their actions on as well. I believe that it gives the PCs as much as information as they need, without giving them too much.

 

[Stoat]

You might handle it differently but I don't let everyone automatically know how many HP someone has. In 4E knowing when someone is bloodied is ok, but not more.

Yeah, we do things a little differently. I've never given my players a monster's hit point total, but it's not unusual for me to describe how seriously a monster is wounded. I played too many MUD's in college to be able to resist saying "X has some big nasty wounds and scratches!" when presented with the opportunity.

 

[med stud]

You might handle it differently but I don't let everyone automatically know how many HP someone has. In 4E knowing when someone is bloodied is ok, but not more.

See 1.

Like I said in my answer, I think it should be obvious when someone is about to drop. I don't supply people with exact HP either but I do describe when someone is seriously hurt. A pit fiend, being millenia old and very intelligent, could most likely draw it's conclusions very accuratly in these occasions.

So, if you play HP totally in the dark (or if you just describe 100% HP - 50% HP - dead) I can sort of understand your position.