If the devils are how monsters will be....I am so happy

[JLXC]

The 4e stat block isn't telling you how Pit Fiends rule Hell. Just what it can do right here, right now, in this fight.

If that's all the options it has in a fight, my argument stands doesn't it?

 

[The Little Raven]

They would have to be just like they WERE to merit such status.

Not when you have the head devil backing you. Or when you can YOUR HEAD ASPLODE most other devils, since you're practically on top of the food chain.

From thousands of possible spell options to 7 or so.

From making most other classes obsolete by mid levels to having his own particular place in the game alongside, rather than above, other classes.

The humanity.

 

[JLXC]

From making most other classes obsolete by mid levels to having his own particular place in the game alongside, rather than above, other classes.

The humanity.

Ahhhh so this is a "Spellcasters are too tough, let's neuter them" argument? So it sounds like you're all for making spellcasters have maybe one spell choice per level or so?

 

[The Little Raven]

Ahhhh so this is a "Spellcasters are too tough, let's neuter them" argument? So it sounds like you're all for making spellcasters have maybe one spell choice per level or so?

No, it's a "let's not let spellcasters make non-spellcasters useless by later levels through a combination of spells and easily purchased consumable magic items" argument. Who needs rogues and fighters when you've got CoDzillas and wands of knock?

 

[JLXC]

Because magic doesn't work everywhere? Because Wands can be broken, dispelled, or used up. Because if the trap goes off you don't have the uber save? Because Rogues have a ton of useful skills that effect non-combat in radical ways as well? Because in a standard campaign, Fighters and other "non-spellcasters" can very well have a plethora of Magic Items, retainers, and other things that make them far from useless outside of combat, and can very well spell the doom of a spellcaster. By the time a Wizard goes all "Epic" one of the wizards greatest fear's should be a Barbarian with Anti-Magic Field!

If the argument is that somehow a person without magic should be in EVERY way equal to someone who can bring back the dead, teleport, or any of the hundreds of other options, then you have to do away with magic entirely. Why play D&D? There's tons of other games that much better do the balance thing, like HERO system for example?

Non-spellcasters can NEVER EVER equal the vesatility of Magic, because it's MAGIC... doesn't make them uselsss, just reliant on magic to beat magic. You know? JUST like the spellcasters?

 

[The Little Raven]

Why play D&D?

Because it's giving me what I want: a game where spellcasters are no longer better, with far more options, than everyone else. A game where a level 20 rogue has just as many options within his role as a level 20 wizard.

Because magic doesn't work everywhere?

Big problem with a fighter and rogue, since their magic items would no longer function as well. Since the game is balanced supposing certain bonuses from magic items, the characters would be below par. Adding to a complete lack of healing and you're looking at a potential TPK unless they turn tail early.

Because Wands can be broken, dispelled, or used up.

First two aren't that common, and the second happens. After fifty charges, which is plenty to replace Open Lock for quite some time, for a cheap price.

Because if the trap goes off you don't have the uber save?

That's why people in previous editions created things like the Contingency spell... so they could have something ready for those "what if?" moments you bring up.

Rogues have a ton of useful skills that effect non-combat in radical ways as well?

All of which can be duplicated by a wizard. Why Climb when you have spider climb or fly... or even better, overland flight for that long duration? Why Move Silenty and Hide when you have fly and invisibility? Why Open Locks when you have knock? With a couple spells, a cleric can become your trap guy. Suggestion/Charm/Dominate/Fear are far more effective than Dipomacy, Bluff, or Intimidate.

When the class design is "can do everything (except heal)," then everyone else (except healers) suffer.

 

[Simon Marks]

If that's all the options it has in a fight, my argument stands doesn't it?

No.

 

[JLXC]

Because it's giving me what I want: a game where spellcasters are no longer better, with far more options, than everyone else. A game where a level 20 rogue has just as many options within his role as a level 20 wizard.

[Shorten]

When the class design is "can do everything (except heal)," then everyone else (except healers) suffer.

That's not D&D, it has never been D&D, and I really hope 4E is not like that. In a game based on Magic, the magic is important. Without it, it's Anime or WoW. It's pathetic. It kills the very CORE of the whole game. There is no way, no way at all, to make D&D work so that someone without magic has "just as many" options as someone without it. It's not remotely possible unless you nerf magic to uslessness. I just can't imagine how many people feel like this?

If Wizards and Clerics are so unbelievable powerful, then why do I have a hard time getting players to actually play them? Oh, it's because Clerics are limited in their actions based on their god, and Wizards are not only hard to play but start off very weak. If what you're saying is true then how many groups of players are composed simply of Wizards and Clerics? Not freakin' many is my guess.

So instead, let's nerf those classes and make sure a Fighter can heal and use magic. Finally! Fairness!

Simply astounding.

 

[The Little Raven]

Without it, it's Anime or WoW.

And due to lack of any kind of real argument, the Younger Evils are named. It's like the new Godwin or something.

It kills the very CORE of the whole game.

Glad to see one character-type outshining everyone else of equal level, even in their own arena (while the others cannot return the favor), is the core of the game for you.

Have fun with the previous editions.

So instead, let's nerf those classes and make sure a Fighter can heal and use magic.

Everyone can self-heal (based on the original Gygaxian interpretation of hit points as more than just raw physical damage).

And fighters don't have magic. They have martial powers.

 

[JLXC]

And due to lack of any kind of real argument, the Younger Evils are named. It's like the new Godwin or something.

Glad to see one character-type outshining everyone else of equal level, even in their own arena (while the others cannot return the favor), is the core of the game for you.

Have fun with the previous editions.

Everyone can heal (based on the original Gygaxian interpretation of hit points as more than just raw physical damage).

And fighters don't have magic. They have martial powers.

Lack of any argument? You have to be just baiting for fun, because it's simply not possible you missed my argument, maybe those phrases are overused on these forums, I don't know. I used them because they were exactly appropriate for what I was talking about.

One character type outshining all others? What are you talking about? Oh that magic is simply better than say a sharp stick? It's the magic that is at question here. Those who have access to it will always be more versatile than not. It's simple logic, not even D&D. If I can break the laws of physics I will be at an advantage to those that are limited by it. It's not in question, and it certainly isn't the fault of people who use it. It just IS.