D&D 5E If you don't like ASI at character creation...

[Horwath]

I dislike any version where the different available options give you math widgets that add up so that specific combos are always mathematically privileged for classes and builds. I'm all for dropping all ASIs at character creation and having race, background, and class give flavorful abilities instead of number bonuses that help you win a math equation.

I hear you, but those "widgets" are also here to fix bunch of odd scores that you could get with rolling abilities.

16,16,14,14 is always better than 15,15,15,15.

that is why if we ever roll, it's (4d3D1)×2, with single +2 ASI

 

[NaturalZero]

I hear you, but those "widgets" are also here to fix bunch of odd scores that you could get with rolling abilities.

16,16,14,14 is always better than 15,15,15,15.

that is why if we ever roll, it's (4d3D1)×2, with single +2 ASI

The abilities scores should just be thrown out. They're a weird anachronistic vestige at this point. The new remastered version of PF2 just uses modifiers and that's easily the simplest, most elegant way to go since it's what you use for 99% of the game.

 

[Horwath]

The abilities scores should just be thrown out. They're a weird anachronistic vestige at this point. The new remastered version of PF2 just uses modifiers and that's easily the simplest, most elegant way to go since it's what you use for 99% of the game.

you will not get any arguments from me on that, but we must keep them because of "MUH GROGNARDISM".

then just add "-5" to my formula for rolling and you get insta modifiers.

(4d3D1-5)×2, goes from -2 to +4

 

[NaturalZero]

At this point, my ideal d20 system involves just using ability modifiers instead of scores and having them range from -1 to +4 at character creation with free (i.e. no sacrificing a feat) increases with character level. Race, background, and class all give qualitative features like breath weapons, teleporting, tremosense, etc, that have active tactical, exploration, and roleplay flavor value instead of "how to I get the best math equation on my sheet" value.

 

[Horwath]

At this point, my ideal d20 system involves just using ability modifiers instead of scores and having them range from -1 to +4 at character creation with free (i.e. no sacrificing a feat) increases with character level. Race, background, and class all give qualitative features like breath weapons, teleporting, tremosense, etc, that have active tactical, exploration, and roleplay flavor value instead of "how to I get the best math equation on my sheet" value.

ideally,
+4,+3,+2,+2,+1,+0
can be array across 20 level. no need to increase it.

 

[jmartkdr2]

I dislike any version where the different available options give you math widgets that add up so that specific combos are always mathematically privileged for classes and builds. I'm all for dropping all ASIs at character creation and having race, background, and class give flavorful abilities instead of number bonuses that help you win a math equation.

I'd go one step further: let's just drop ability scores altogether.

But if we're not killing that sacred cow, OP's idea is a fine one I'd be happy to play with.

 

[deadman1204]

The trouble with rolling is that unless its all witnessed rolls, some have vastly more powerful characters than others...
Even then, if someone has bad rolls, a wizard with a 12 int won't land many spells. The game is designed for you to have good stats.

 

[Corinnguard]

The trouble with rolling is that unless its all witnessed rolls, some have vastly more powerful characters than others...
Even then, if someone has bad rolls, a wizard with a 12 int won't land many spells. The game is designed for you to have good stats.

More like it encourages you to have good stats for whichever class you want to play as. Before Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, the fixed +2/+1 combos that certain species had, favored certain classes over others. The Dragonborn's +2 STR, +1 CHA made them pretty good STR-based martials and CHA-based casters. But if you wanted your Dragonborn to be something else, you were kind of out of luck.

Tasha's Cauldron of Everything did away with this minor crutch by allowing you to place the ASIs anywhere you wanted them. However, it didn't put an end to wanting those good stats.

 

[ezo]

I'm all for dropping all ASIs at character creation

Ditto. Always have been, always will be in agreement. If you want a high scores because it represents what you think your race should have, put a high score there...

My point in the OP was just that if you must have ASI don't have a flat bonus.

The abilities scores should just be thrown out. They're a weird anachronistic vestige at this point.

At this point, my ideal d20 system involves just using ability modifiers instead of scores and having them range from -1 to +4 at character creation with free (i.e. no sacrificing a feat) increases with character level. Race, background, and class all give qualitative features like breath weapons, teleporting, tremosense, etc, that have active tactical, exploration, and roleplay flavor value instead of "how to I get the best math equation on my sheet" value.

I will bookmark this post so I can inform you when we're done. I think you might like our "version of D&D" when its finished.

The trouble with rolling is that unless its all witnessed rolls, some have vastly more powerful characters than others...
Even then, if someone has bad rolls, a wizard with a 12 int won't land many spells. The game is designed for you to have good stats.

The real problem is the weight of ability modifiers to proficiency bonus. Ability modifiers carry WAY TOO MUCH weight. You should be able to play a INT 12 Wizard and expect to do reasonably well. Sure, the other guy might have +1 or 2 more than you, but that should be it, and in the grand scheme of things shouldn't be that big a deal (having INT 18 vs. INT 12).

It is one reason why WWN appeals to me in some ways. An 18 is +2, 14-17 is +1, then 0's and penalties...

 

[Horwath]

The real problem is the weight of ability modifiers to proficiency bonus. Ability modifiers carry WAY TOO MUCH weight. You should be able to play a INT 12 Wizard and expect to do reasonably well. Sure, the other guy might have +1 or 2 more than you, but that should be it, and in the grand scheme of things shouldn't be that big a deal (having INT 18 vs. INT 12).

It is one reason why WWN appeals to me in some ways. An 18 is +2, 14-17 is +1, then 0's and penalties...

Leave ability modifiers for ABILITY CHECKS, rest uses prof bonus instead of ability bonus.
That is, AC, DC, attacks, damage, saves all uses prof bonus.