D&D 5E If you use thunderstep but teleport less than 10 feet do you take damage?

[Maxperson]

Is teleportations instantaneous? Who knows, there are no general rules for teleportation in 5e.

5e uses the common usage of words unless it explicitly has a different definition. There is no other definition for teleport in 5e, so it uses the commonly understood real world definition, which is instant travel. Further, the teleport spell mentions instant travel, backing up the definition.

 

[Maxperson]

This is actually incorrect. Let's say that I ready an action to move if the caster disappears. When he casts thunderstep, my readied action is triggered after he disappears, but BEFORE any other effect, using my reaction.

No. No it's not. Readied actions explicitly wait for the required trigger to complete, so if you wait for an instant spell involving the caster disappearing to trigger the readied action and that disappearance is a teleport, that trigger isn't complete until he reappears.

So in the case of Thunder Step you ready an action for when the caster disappears. Let's say you are 10 feet away and want to run for the exit as your action. When he disappears from the spellcasting, you don't get to stop him in mid instant transit and run for the door. His action has to complete before you can run for the door, so he appears somewhere within 90 feet and you take damage. Then you run for the door before he can do anything else.

"When the trigger occurs, you can either take your reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore the trigger."

 

[Baron Opal II]

Because it uses that exact word- "immediately after you disappear ..."in the spell.

So the character is hidden? Invisible, ethereal, out of phase, plane shifted? What is the character state when they have "disappeared"?

Because teleportation causes him to disappear from one place and reappear at another ?

Exactly.

And teleportation is instantaneous.

And the detonation happens immediately thereafter.

So the caster gets tagged if they're too close.

And too quick for a reaction.
(Maybe- that's a little shaky because of counterspell. But I would consider before any physical action should the spell resolve.)

 

[Maxperson]

So the character is hidden? Invisible, ethereal, out of phase, plane shifted? What is the character state when they have "disappeared"?


Exactly.

And teleportation is instantaneous.

And the detonation happens immediately thereafter.

So the caster gets tagged if they're too close.

And too quick for a reaction.
(Maybe- that's a little shaky because of counterspell. But I would consider before any physical action should the spell resolve.)

Counterspell would have to happen prior to the spell completing. Once it is done and the caster disappears and at the same moment reappears, it's too late for even counterspell. Nothing can interrupt that action until it completes.

 

[Lyxen]

No. No it's not. Readied actions explicitly wait for the required trigger to complete, so if you wait for an instant spell involving the caster disappearing to trigger the readied action and that disappearance is a teleport, that trigger isn't complete until he reappears.

This is incorrect. The trigger is not the spell, as it's not necessarily an perceivable circumstance. The trigger is the caster disappearing. Readied actions INTERRUPT another creature's turn, it's specifically written that way: "If the reaction interrupts another creature’s turn, that creature can continue its turn right after the reaction."

You have many examples, like the opportunity attack, or the casting of counterspell, who interrupt whatever is going on, which can then resume after the reaction completes.

So in the case of Thunder Step you ready an action for when the caster disappears. Let's say you are 10 feet away and want to run for the exit as your action. When he disappears from the spellcasting, you don't get to stop him in mid instant transit and run for the door.

Of course you do, that's the rule, and this is clearly spelled out, in particular for 5e. Thunder step clearly does some things in sequence: "Immediately after you disappear, a thunderous boom sounds..."

So there is a sequence here, although some things are "instantaneous", they are not simultaneous. If the trigger for your reaction occurs (the caster disappears), the ready action is very clear: "you can either take your reaction right after the trigger finishes."

So clearly, RAW, with a trigger of "the caster disappears", the reaction is right after the disappearance, interrupts the caster's turn, allows the creature to move away, then the caster's turn resumes and the boom sounds.

And even if you consider that the boom and the reaction should be simultaneous since they both occur just after caster disappears, Xanathar's rule shows that whoever is concerned chooses what happens first. Because the potential victim is the only one concerned by both the damage and his readied action, he gets to choose, and he will of course move before the boom.

Honestly, on this, 5e is very, very clear, there is no room for debate.

His action has to complete before you can run for the door, so he appears somewhere within 90 feet and you take damage. Then you run for the door before he can do anything else.

"When the trigger occurs, you can either take your reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore the trigger."

And with the trigger of "when the caster disappears" (which is a totally valid trigger), it interrupts the caster's turn and the reaction allows the creature to move before the second "step" of the spell.

 

[Lyxen]

Counterspell would have to happen prior to the spell completing. Once it is done and the caster disappears and at the same moment reappears, it's too late for even counterspell. Nothing can interrupt that action until it completes.

While I agree about counterspell, as it interrupts a complete spell, it's not the case for readied action, which is designed to interrupt whatever is happening, as written.

 

[Lyxen]

You still aren't understanding, because nothing I said involved "only within the sphere." It's "only within the sphere" is does teleportation fail. It does not fail outside of the sphere.

Teleportation moves you from one place to another without crossing the intermediate space (in particular because you do not choose the path that you take when teleporting). Because teleportation fails within the sphere, you cannot appear there, full stop.

So as written, because it does not in any of your quotes cause the spell to fail, the teleport from outside the sphere succeeds as a departure point and then fails as a destination point WITHIN the sphere.

And as it fails as a destination point within the sphere, it simply fails. You have no destination, no path, so you simply don't move.

Right. So the caster successfully departs from outside the sphere due to the teleport spell not failing, and then nothing. It fails inside the sphere as a destination and there are no rules for where the caster ends up.

The teleportation fails. The caster does not end up anywhere, because he is not moving along any path. There is only a departure and arrival point. Since there is no arrival, there is simply no departure.

Teleport doesn't fold space.

First, no-one says it does. But you would have a difficult time proving that it does not, try it. Show me where it says that it does not fold space.

That's a gate spell.

The fact that other spells do something is certainly not a proof that another spell does not do the same thing. It's actually more an indication that it does.

Moreover, a gate spell does not really fold space, since it is also between planes.

Teleport just transports you, which means you do cross the intervening space, but you do so instantly.

Prove it. Show me where it says that you cross the space. It does not, and in particular, there is no choice of a path to cross it. This is 5e, and spells only do what they say they do. Does the spell say that you "instantly cross the intervening space"? No, all it says is that it instantly transports you. There is no mention of intervening space.

It does have two ends like a string, and like any string you can leave one end and travel to the to the other end, even if the other end is cut short.

There is no cutting. There is no path. Show me where the spell says that there is a path. There is ONLY a departure and a destination. If there is no destination, there is no teleportation, at all. As said in antimagic field, the teleportation fails.

Teleport works like that as written. You leave the destination successfully, since the spell works.

Antimagic field does not mention a spell. It just says that teleportation (not teleport, the spell) fails in the sphere when the destination is in the sphere.

You travel along the string instantly.

Prove it. Show me where the string is in the spell description.

And then the teleportation fails as a destination inside the sphere. So where does the caster emerge?

He does not move. There is no path, no string, just a departure point and a destination point, since that one is within an antimagic field, the teleportation fails, and the spell, although successfully cast, fails. Again, very clear in Xanathar in the section about invalid spell targets. Your target destination is invalid, since an antimagic field causes teleportation to FAIL when the destination is within the field. So "nothing happens to that target, but if you used a spell slot to cast the spell, the slot is still expended."

 

[Lyxen]

No it's not. There is no specific exception created by the "after you disappear" portion of the spell, because for specific to beat general it has to explicitly carve out a specific contradiction, not be implied. It would require the rest of the sentence to say, "so the caster takes no damage from teleporting within 10 feet." for specific to beat general to apply. As written, Thunderclap does not specifically say that the caster is excepted from the damage. It just says when the damage triggers, which is after the teleport begins and ends,

Wrong. This is not what the spell says.

since teleportation is instantaneous in 5e and the damage does not say it interrupts transit.

And the damage is instantaneous TOO, sorry. And, contrary to the reappearance, the damage is specified to be IMMEDIATELY after the reappearance. So the sequence is clear: Disappearance, Damage, Reappearance, all instantaneous, bus not simultaneous either, as per the Xanathar rule.

 

[jasper]

I feel warm and fuzzy in these old bones. I feel like I am seeing an 1E fight over EXACT spells work. I feel happy. Oh that just my morning drugs kicking in.
1E Verbal arguments over how spell works. 5E verbal and internet arguments on how spell work.
1E I wear glasses. 5E I still wear glass just stronger.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

The literal functioning of the spell depends on whether you assume disappearing and and appearing to be two temporally distinct events, or merely the same event observed in different locations. I also don't think that figuring out the RAW is really that important. First off, there simply is not enough information and the rules are not written tightly enough that it would be possible to do so in this instance, and secondly, as Crawford is committed to demonstrating, literal RAW is often nonsensical mess.

So just decide how you want it to work in your game, and do that. And inform the players of the ruling before they use the spell; the characters in the setting can be assumed to know how their magic works.