I'm hearing rumblings...

[Eben]

I actually quite like the AoO.
I made a playing surface with 1" square grids. (and a few days later I learned about GeoHex Battlemats ) When we have a combat situation, we make it into little miniature skirmishes. It really helps. The visual support helps you understand AoO and other rules. Once you get the hang of this, you'll notice that it's actually quite logical. I would never dream of dropping the AoO, next to the skill system, its the greatest innovation in the system. (and the character progression, multiclassing, magic items, ... rules. I hated AD&D. The only reason I played it was because the rest liked it. 3e is great: it kept the feel of the game, but now the rules made sense.)

 

[Jamko]

...from disgruntled players. My DM just burned out citing 3e rules exhaustion. Some of my fellow players have friends who want to start up a 1e game.

This is not a rant or a troll. So how about it guys? The d20 game mechanic is simple. So why is D&D 3e so complex? Do most of your sessions consist of rules lawyering, page flipping, and game speak? What can we do about it?

Don't use all the rules. My group doesn't.

We have a guideline we follow during the game: if you can't remember the rule without opening the book, the DM/GM makes a call and we move on. It can be looked up later. The only exception to this is when we forget how many VP are used up by different Force powers when we play Star Wars.

Once you realize that the rules in D&D are only there to be used if you want them, you'll be a much happier d20 player.

 

[EricNoah]

Here's a DM's perspective: In the intro to the 1E DMG Gary Gygax talks about DMing being part art, part science. I think with 3E there is a somewhat larger emphasis on the "science" part of DMing and playing. If you want to create new monsters or magic items or spells or abilities (feats, skills), there are some fairly complex rules to get under your belt. I can see where a 1E or 2E DM might balk at 3E's attempts to get you to "do it right."

In earlier editions of the game, if you created a new magic item you just guessed at a cost and XP value; if you wanted a new monster you just did what looked right to you. Those who are better at the "art" side of things might not appreciate the need for the larger emphasis on "science."

I personally like having some guidelines in areas where there weren't any before, but also feel a little bit of a straightjacket in one sense -- with 2E, I posted all of my adventures online as I wrote them. I had no fear that someone would read them and say "gosh he got the rules wrong on that new monster or those NPC stats." I feel a lot less confident sharing my 3E creations with the world on my website for those very reasons...

 

[maddman75]

Here's my $.02

Use minis. Even if you have to use counters, or coins, or m&ms, whatever. It does speed things up and prevents arguements.

The DM is the arbiter of all rules. State your position to him, take a minute or so to discuss, then go by his ruling. If you disagree, discuss it outside the game but keep things moving. Unless a character is going to live or die by this one call, it isn't worth slowing the game down.

Don't allow chess players. In my last game, I had a player moving his character up around a hall to see the Big Bad Guy while staying out of his reach. He started counting squares to see exactly where he could be placed, if he could get a square furthur by going this way instead of that, etc. I plainly told him "look, we ain't playing chess here. Just show me where your guy wants to move."

 

[Henry]

Droogie, have you and your group been playing 3E long? More than a few months? The reason I ask is that Rules confusion seems for some reason a frequent occurrance among groups that are used to 1E or 2E and start playing 3E.

The best thing I can say is that in my experience, our group, while still needing to look up rules from time to time, have become rather comfortable with 3E, and because of the conformity of the rules, rarely have to look up something (maybe wizard and sorcerer spell progression tables). Heck, the system is so regimented that I can calculate bonus spells from high ability scores in my head out to the hundreds!

Attacks of Opportunity, while important, are maybe the most confusing rules in the book. The first part is easy - within, or out of - but the rest you learn after figuring out what in combat is "stupid", and what is not. Drawing a weapon is not "stupid" - drinking a potion is; advancing on an enemy is not "stupid" - initiating a grapple with an armed fighter is. There is a system to AoO's - one has to study it before it come out. Not having AoO's IMHO is worse than having them - In Star Wars, there is no way I cannot fire a gun at a man standing 5 feet away. However, giving him a chance to wrestle the gun out of my hand is reasonable.

The core mechanic is simple - the complexity comes in when trying to give rules for every possible action, which 3E almost succeeds at - This is its blessing, and its curse.

But I still get a smile when a player comes up with an oddball tactic, wondering how I would resolve it, and then I pick up the rulebook and tell him what chapter it's covered under.

P.S. - It's also perfectly fine to be burned out. Our group has played everything from Magic the Gathering, to Battletech, to Heroquest, to Mage Knight, to d20 Star Wars, in an effort to keep things new and spry. So far, we have been playing d20 systems weekly non-stop since January, and it may be time for us to switch systems for a while. No system will suit a group forever. It never did in the old days, and it certainly won't now.

I wonder if Piratecat's group ever gets tired of 3E? Seems as if they play it on a weekly basis too, between his and Sagiro's campaigns...

 

[Eben]

Originally posted by maddman75:
Don't allow chess players. In my last game, I had a player moving his character up around a hall
to see the Big Bad Guy while staying out of his reach. He started counting squares to see
exactly where he could be placed, if he could get a square furthur by going this way instead of
that, etc. I plainly told him "look, we ain't playing chess here. Just show me where your guy
wants to move."

Playing tactically isn't necessarily bad. It just depends on the group and the DM. Our group also likes to play wargames. So nobody minds if you think before you act. I don't see a problem with trying to stay out of harms way (especially when you're a low hit point character with the ability to help combat from a distance.) Figuring out neat tactics is part of the fun for us. You just have to figure out what style of play your group likes.

I agree with Eric: the added complexity allows for a greater game balance, which is great if you create your own adventures. In 2e, I never had a mage who scribed scrolls, brewed potions,.. The reason being: the DM wasn't sure about stuff like price, time and game balance.

 

[Voadam]

Eben

I agree that playing tactically is part of the fun but keeping combat flowing and preventing it from bogging down is very important as well. Since combat rounds are six seconds long it is not unreasonable to give players each about six seconds when their turn in combat comes up to anounce their action or else as DM say they delayed for the round. This encourages people to have spell pages ready or to use straightforward actions and movement that can be reasonably done in the hurly burly of combat. This adds to the feeling of a fast-paced combat as well. Just make sure you tell people before-hand that this is how you will handle things and that the combat will only stop if the DM needs to look something up. Having players required to have page references ready for special actions (like grappling or spells) helps speed things up as well.

 

[Psion]

The d20 game mechanic is simple. So why is D&D 3e so complex? Do most of your sessions consist of rules lawyering, page flipping, and game speak? What can we do about it?

No, not really. A competant DM will:

• Know the rules
• Have the wherewithal to say "screw it", make an on the spot decision, and look up the specifics later. Make a house rule that says this if it makes you more comfortable.
• Delegate the page flipping to one of the players.
• Have a command of the books and/or bookmarks to any frequently referenced sections to minimize time of page flipping.
• Be able to use the nice and flexible d20 system to run off the cuff.

Are there to many feats? To many Prestige classes?

Too many? For what purposes? To many for me to use? Yes. But I find that I really only use a few books during play and planning. You really DON'T have to use everything.

Are AoOs drivng anyone else crazy?

I am astonished anyone is still having AoO difficulties. The thumbrule is rather straightforward: spells and movement except the first five feet unless running.

Not that difficult.

Do any of you feel obliged to follow every rule and apply every modifier out of fear of breaking something?

I do try to get it right, but the flow of the game is more important than ensuring you remember a +2 modifier.

 

[DungeonKeeperUK]

Still, I'm sure someone has a short answer to some of these questions.

I think someone said it before... but..

Enjoy teh game for what it is, a game, don't get bogged down in teh mechanics of it all..
If a rule is going to stop play, make a snap decision and review it afterwards then infrom teh group how to handle it next time.

As for Feats etc.. make sure the players know their charcter and trust their judgement, worried about how something is handled? See above, check after the game..

To ensure a good game their has to be a lot of trust. Trust from teh Players that the DM is going to treat them fairly, even if it means makeing snap decsions on teh rules..
And trust from the DM that the players are aware of teh rules for their player...


To sum up...
Don't worry too much about rules, just enjoy the hobby we all love...

EDIT
And get a good character sheet that can show as much info as possible without getting into pages and pages....

 

[Fiery Todd]

Use minis. Even if you have to use counters, or coins, or m&ms, whatever. It does speed things up and prevents arguements.

Yes, its a shameless plug, but once we at FDP read the rules for the first time, we couldn't imagine this edition being played without minis, and/or COUNTERS (get you Counter Collection today!). If you've never used a battle mat before, I highly recommend it. It really does speed things up, and makes AoO, spell radius, etc. a non-issue.


P.S. - It's also perfectly fine to be burned out. Our group has played everything from Magic the Gathering, to Battletech, to Heroquest, to Mage Knight, to d20 Star Wars, in an effort to keep things new and spry. So far, we have been playing d20 systems weekly non-stop since January, and it may be time for us to switch systems for a while. No system will suit a group forever. It never did in the old days, and it certainly won't now. [/QUOTE]

This is so true. I'm a firm believer that if you want to keep your D&D game fresh, you play other games. D&D is the first love, but there's nothing wrong with breaking it up a bit. We play a little Feng Shui on the side. Great game. Board games (and I mean that in the broadest sense) gives the DM a break from always having to be the "host". For me, the focus is never on the game itself, but rather, simply having an excuse to get together with friends and having a good time.