D&D 4E I'm Not Sure I Can Afford 4e

[Lonely Tylenol]

I could buy three -- that said, for what I spend with my ISP every month, I get access to music, movies, video games, VOIP long distance, forums, email, and dozens of other things. i can talk to family and friends that live on the other side of the globe, watch movies that I can't rent locally, buy music that stores in the US don't carry, discuss RPGs with hundreds of people at one time, and *instantly* immerse myself in hundreds of peristent fantasy worlds with the click of a button -- etc, etc, etc. All things considered, the return that I get for my $75 a month in internet service is much greater than the nine or ten hours of fun that I get out of a tabletop roleplaying game in a given month.

$75 a month? Holy jeebus! What kind of bandwidth are you pulling down at that price? I pay less than half that for 7 Meg.

 

[The Little Raven]

You're going to have to draw me a picture, because I don't see how that reasoning suggests that at all. I've already mentioned upstream that I pick and choose, so more available content doesn't cost me anything.

You said that making your game line 100% more expensive (but not in absolute terms*) annually will result in you pricing your game out of the market.

That means that if I produce 100% more content (12 books to my competitor's 6, but at the same cover price of $19.99 per product), then my game line will cost someone 100% more to keep up with, and that will price me out of the market, since my game is 100% more expensive, annually. Obviously, that can't be true, since the market share leaders produce way more content than other members of the industry, yet still make even more money.

* By "in absolute terms," I take it to mean more expensive overall, but not per-product. If the per-product price is the same, the only way to make yourself 50% to 100% "more expensive annually" would be to produce more content anually.

 

[jdrakeh]

$75 a month? Holy jeebus! What kind of bandwidth are you pulling down at that price? I pay less than half that for 7 Meg.

Oh. Sorry. I guess my internet bill is only $47 or so -- the rest of that is for my phone. I have about 8 MB of bandwidth.

 

[jdrakeh]

Yes, but D&D costs considerably less than $75 per month.

Apples to apples.

I recall an old addage along the lines of "You get what you pay for"

 

[jdrakeh]

As a hobby, rpg gaming is one of the cheapest things you can do.

You know, I've probably spent more money and gotten less return on RPGs than any other hobby I've ever had. The myth that RPGs give back forever is predicated on several typically false assumptions:

1. You'll always be able to find people to play them with.

If you don't have people to play games with, you won't get any substantial return on them. A pile full of unused games is a total loss, financially speaking, unless you bought them as a collector in the first place. If you bought them to play and you can't get people interested in them, you won't be getting anything back from them.

2. You'll always have time to play them.

Even if you get people interested in a game, tabletop RPGs require an investement of time that far exceeds that required to indulge in most (if not all) other entertainment mediums. Setting up a night of adventure can take a week's worth of preparation. Setting up a night of movie watching, video game play, or music listening requires one to push a button. As above, if you don't have the time to invest in a tabletop RPG, you'll have a pile full of unused games.

2. Other forms of entertainment are only good for one use.

Computer games, novels, movies, music and other forms of media all have the potential to be vastly entertaining over and over again. RPGs do not have a monopoly on replay value and don't have any kind of a real edge over other mediums in this regard. In fact, since replay value is entirely dependent on 1 and 2 above, tabletop RPGs are arguably at a pretty big disadvantage with regard to replay value.

 

[The Little Raven]

Computer games, novels, movies, music and other forms of media all have the potential to be vastly entertaining over and over again.

Last I checked, movies, novels, music, and games don't become different the second time. Frodo is still taking the Ring to Mordor, Han still saves Luke's bacon, Peter Frampton always makes his guitar "talk" at the same time, and Aerith still dies no matter what you do.

D&D on the other hand, can be completely different every single time you sit down. That's what people mean when they talk about replay value. Doing the same basic thing, but with an entirely different result.

As above, if you don't have the time to invest in a tabletop RPG, you'll have a pile full of unused games.

If you don't have time for it, anything is a waste of money. If you don't have time for a movie, then your DVD collection is a waste. If you don't have time to read, then novels are a waste of money. It's obvious and it applies equally to all things.

The point, which you seem to be deliberately ignoring, is that when you are actually able to play, a $30 game book will give you far more man-hours of entertainment than the $30 it costs for you and a friend to go see a movie.

There's a big difference between "this hobby has less value over time than other hobbies" (which is what you seem to be claiming) and "my personal situation makes RPGs a poor investment for the amount of time I have to enjoy them" (which is what seems to be the reality of your personal situation).

 

[Fifth Element]

I recall an old addage along the lines of "You get what you pay for"

Yeah. What does that have to do with my comment?

 

[Steely Dan]

Simple, just buy the 3 first core books, and that's it, $100, give or take, for years of pleasure.


Pretty much every other hobby cost way more than RPGs – cars/comic books/stamp collecting/women/baseball cards/wine/antiques/art etc.

 

[Hussar]

2. You'll always have time to play them.

Even if you get people interested in a game, tabletop RPGs require an investement of time that far exceeds that required to indulge in most (if not all) other entertainment mediums. Setting up a night of adventure can take a week's worth of preparation. Setting up a night of movie watching, video game play, or music listening requires one to push a button. As above, if you don't have the time to invest in a tabletop RPG, you'll have a pile full of unused games.

You realize you've segued into a different issue though.

The OP isn't talking about having time or money for multiple games. Just one. Just 4e. That you have a pile of unused games isn't terribly relevant. Stop buying other games and focus your time on one or two and your problem goes away.

I would also point out that the time and scheduling issue is rapidly becoming much less of a problem. VTT gaming is becoming a very viable option. It actually has been a very viable option for a while, but, if WOTC's VTT is as good as it looks, I can see people actually preferring it to face to face play.

Imagine, being able to play whenever you want. If you can find the three or four hours a week to play WOW, or sit down to a movie, I guarantee you can find five other people, somewhere in the world, whose schedule matches yours. Now, the whole "I can't find a group" issue goes right out the window.

1% of the RPGA would bring enough groups to the VTT to have a new game being started every hour of every day. 1500 people is all that takes. WOTC's hoping for a heck of a lot more users than that.

 

[pawsplay]

That means that if I produce 100% more content (12 books to my competitor's 6, but at the same cover price of $19.99 per product), then my game line will cost someone 100% more to keep up with, and that will price me out of the market, since my game is 100% more expensive, annually.

... If I buy everything in the product line. Which I've already said I never do. With 3.5, I never felt pressure to buy any sourcebooks. With 4e:

Many classic races, classes, and abilities will be in later books.
... Along with many classic monsters.
Two books or so anually will carry the designation "core."
Web enhancements are going to cost money, at least some of the time.
Sourcebooks will be designed consciously with the knowledge they are not as complete as they could be (for example, "We'll just put frost giants in a later MM, who needs 'em?")

So if I don't sink a lot of extra money into it, my game will seem lame compared to other people's games, compared to 3.5, compared to a number of other games I already known. Yes, I can still play it, and I certainly would... but do I want to spend money on it?