D&D 4E I'm really concerned about 4E

Let's be clear here, the game is not going out for its first playtest:

Psion said:
The PHB manuscript has been delivered, we are told, and the only function large scale, outside playtesting will serve at this point is to catch bugs, not make major changes in direction.
I think you will find this with any beta test. The direction has been determined, the beta test is to find those little niggling issues that crop up.
 

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A'koss said:
You are kidding about the virtual minis, right?


I don't see why not? They have already been selling virtual, randomized packs of Magic: the Gathering cards for years. Oh sure, if you got a complete set of cards from one wave, you could trade in your virtual cards for a factory set, but considering that meant a few hundred cards, (TIMES TWO because you needed both regular and foil virtual cards), I wonder just how many sets they handed out like that. Oh, and when you did turn in a set, you gave up all the virtual cards turned in, so if you still wanted to use any of those randomized, virtual cards to play online, you needed at least 3 copies of each card, since you lost two for the factory set trade-in.

I can 100% believe they would try this with "virtual minis".
 

Odhanan said:
I guess not.

It's making me feel that way though.

From what I see of e-Dragon so far... that's not remotely the same thing as the old magazine. I was actually reading the letters of the readers. The news, the ads, the magazine, you know? That's not because you have "Ecology" or "Bazaar of the Bizarre" that you have Dragon. Layout on a website is not the same thing as layout on a page. Reading a PDF is not the same as turning the pages of a magazine on your couch. The smell of it, the touch of it? God, just writing this, I really feel like I'm a has-been, now.

I mean, it's great some of you can really rejoice in the advent of e-Dragon and just love the possibilities it offers. I know it's early to call it one way or another, but what I'm seeing so far just does not excite me one bit. I hope it changes over time, but I'm not holding my breath.

Od, even though I don't agree, I think I understand what you're saying. However, I feel the need to point out a few things.

1. As I understand it, the articles in Dragon & Dungeon will be collected into .pdf's very similar to a magazine at the end of every month. A subscription to DDI means you "own" the pdf for the month you subscribed.

2. Also, as I understand it, the Gleemax presentation of Dragon and Dungeon isn't online and functional yet. So, for right now, we're getting the magazine articles presented in article format, not "online magazine" format.

There are some people who haven't bought the magazines on a regular basis for years who are HAPPY that they've gone digital. I'm one of them. I might have bought 1 issue in 4 of Dragon and 1 in 6 of Dungeon on the newsstand. I hate magazines because in my life, they get read once and filed. I'd MUCH rather get gaming material in digital format. I also fully expect that periodicals of all sorts will be the first print materials to become digital only over the next decade.

I wouldn't worry too much about the business model making the game unwieldy. I imagine, if anything, that we'll see fewer books than in 3.5, but higher quality ones.

The Monster Manual situation isn't changing much, except that we know in advance we'll get a new book (with more monsters to play with) each year. The PHB and DMG sequels seem problematic, until you look at it from the standpoint of the business.

The problem with a "splat book" is that they're class specific. If you don't play an arcanist, you're probably not going to buy The Complete Arcane. Even a DM might be hesitant to shell out $35 on a book he's not likely to use. So I think the idea is to take the information you'd print in all those splats, and spread them out over various PHB and DMG releases. That way, only the good material will see print - but there will be more incentive for everyone to buy the books because it's useful, regardless of the kind of character you play. The PHB and DMG sequels will probably be a combination of new options for existing character classes, new character classes, DMing tips and advice, adventure suggestions and the like that just won't fit in one book.

It's going to take them years to equal the options in 3.5, and I think they realized that making PHB 1, 2, 3, etc. and DMG 1, 2, 3, etc. is a better approach than releasing Complete Warrior 1, 2, 3, etc.; Complete Arcane 1, 2, 3, etc.; Complete Adventurer 1, 2, 3 etc.; and Complete Divine 1, 2, 3, etc.

Basically, if you can make one book, and sell 100,000 copies of it, it's far better than selling 10,000 copies of 10 books. Make sense? And if there are fewer books, it also might mean that everyone is MORE likely to have the same books. Because even a DM will get some use out of a book which provides 8 new classes in various roles, more powers, more feats, and so on. That potentially allows more gamers to have more of the same common ground than before, rather than less.

In addtion, we'll probably get books dedicated to providing more "powers" for each "power source" (functionally equivalent to the Spell Compendium) between the various PHB/DMG sequels, since those seem to do reasonably well. However, those will probably come out as good ideas overwhelm the page count available in the Core Rules, rather than on any kind of mandated schedule.
 
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JVisgaitis said:
Then don't buy them. Just because they are saying that they want to release a lot more books as core doesn't obligate you to buy them. That goes doubly so for the digital miniatures and everything else. I don't understand why people get so uptight about stuff like this. WotC is a business. They are trying to make money. If you don't like their practices or the Digital Initiative, don't subscribe to them! Buy the initial 3 core rulebooks and move on and be happy with life. :D

I think the concern, though, is that as the product changes, so does the D&D gaming culture. It's fine to say, "I'm only buying the first three books! No more!" but if EVERY OTHER D&D PLAYER OUT THERE is insisting on using "Teh kewl" of PHB 2,3, and 4, then you're sitting there with your core books, all alone.

It's like a guy saying, "I hate all these Magic: the Gathering boosters and expansions" and someone else saying, "Then don't use 'em! Just go to tournaments with a basic deck!"

(I don't play CCGs, so forgive me if I misused terms in the above example. But I hope my point is clear).
 


I get what you're saying, JohnSnow, but how do you equate PH 1, 2, 3 etc etc to equate to less books that 3.5 in the end? From what I understand, we'll have several books for campaign settings, and so on. Sounds like we could just as well have gazillions PHs, DMGs, MMs, campaign settings, etc etc?

They realized PHB2 and DMG2 sold well in 3.5, and they want to confirm by shooting the ball out of the park after the touchdown.

2. Also, as I understand it, the Gleemax presentation of Dragon and Dungeon isn't online and functional yet. So, for right now, we're getting the magazine articles presented in article format, not "online magazine" format.

I hope the online mag format is quite different, because the PDFs of the articles at this moment are really not impressive.
 

Odhanan said:
I guess not.

It's making me feel that way though.

From what I see of e-Dragon so far... that's not remotely the same thing as the old magazine. I was actually reading the letters of the readers. The news, the ads, the magazine, you know? That's not because you have "Ecology" or "Bazaar of the Bizarre" that you have Dragon. Layout on a website is not the same thing as layout on a page. Reading a PDF is not the same as turning the pages of a magazine on your couch. The smell of it, the touch of it? God, just writing this, I really feel like I'm a has-been, now.

I mean, it's great some of you can really rejoice in the advent of e-Dragon and just love the possibilities it offers. I know it's early to call it one way or another, but what I'm seeing so far just does not excite me one bit. I hope it changes over time, but I'm not holding my breath.

I completely empathise with Odhanan. I was initially worried since the announcement and have been reduced to the comment 'meh' when speaking about 4th Ed. I appreciate what WotC is trying to to in order to keep (what they view as) D&D alive, but I find myself looking elsewhere for enjoyment.

To comment constructively on what Odhanan could do to get excited about his D&D again is to look around at some other games. I would suggest:

Castles & Crusades
OSRIC
True20
Mutants and Masterminds


I find that I am converting more and more to Castles and Crusades, personally. It reminds me of a younger me (a geeky, 15 year-old student) playing Temple of Elemental Evil in his school lunch hour with Mr Mullins the music teacher/DM. Perhaps Odhanan, you could give it a look.

Huh. Funny. It is only since writing this that I realise that I am over it; I no longer feel like I need to dance to the tune. When 4th Edition comes out, maybe I will get it, maybe I won't. As a customer, I am going to rely completely on reviews before I look at it, but I am sure WotC will produce some fine work when they release 4th and later Editions :)
 

I'm going to hold any further comments on the new format for Dragon and Dungeon until the month is over and the .pdf's are available. But I do want to address the other issue you raised.

Odhanan said:
I get what you're saying, JohnSnow, but how do you equate PH 1, 2, 3 etc etc to equate to less books that 3.5 in the end? From what I understand, we'll have several books for campaign settings, and so on. Sounds like we could just as well have gazillions PHs, DMGs, MMs, campaign settings, etc etc?

They realized PHB2 and DMG2 sold well in 3.5, and they want to confirm by shooting the ball out of the park after the touchdown.

What they have said is that they have "at least 1 D&D product a month" for the foreseeable future. While that sounds like a lot, it could be covered by:

1 PHB
1 MM
1 DMG
3 Campaign Setting-specific books (4e FR CSB)
3 Hardcover adventures
3 Misc. Supplements

That's 12 releases. And it's more than we get now. From what's been said, it looks like 2008 looks like:

April: Keep on the Shadowfell
May: PHB 1
June: MM 1
July: DMG 1
August: FR CSB 4e

And, based on what Bill Slaviscek said at Gen-Con, probably 4 other releases.

By contrast, 2006 saw 18 releases for the game, counting Eberron and Forgotten Realms supplements, but not counting adventures.

I think that makes the case that there's room in the schedule for 3 new Core Books each year. And since they're likely to sell better than splats, they're more profitable for WotC. That whole "any class can use Complete Arcane" line was mostly hogwash, and we all know it. But no matter what your favorite character type is, there was stuff for you in PHB 2.
 

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