D&D 4E I'm really concerned about 4E

[hong]

Okay. I'm going to try to explain.

I want to buy everything there's to buy about this game. I love the game. I want to keep up with it. I want to keep being interested in everything that goes with it.

My problem isn't that I don't want to hurt my wallet or whatever. I'm not discussing either that WotC is a business, that they're making money blablabla. I don't deny any of that. But that has strictly NOTHING to do with my concerns.

I have concerns for MY relationship with D&D, the game I love, and everything that surrounds it. I would love for WotC to just charm me into opening my wallet for them. Please, rape my wallet! See? But that's not happening. THAT's what is worrying me.

Let me spell it again loud and clear: this has nothing to do whatsoever with money. It has everything to do with my love of the game.

I hope it's clearer. Cheers,
Benoist.

You're describing codependency, mang. Fight it!

 

[Nifft]

The "D&D Good Edition Rule" could shape up the opposite of the "Good Star Trek Movie Rule".

You think all editions of D&D are good, then?

-- N

 

[Odhanan]

You're describing codependency, mang. Fight it!

Yeah, well, it's not that bad, I hope!

I was trying to put my fears into words. I have hopes too, you know?

 

[Li Shenron]

For example, they want PHB1, PHB2, and PHB3 to all be considered "core". So, in order to sell *all* those books, they are "holding out" some races or classes to be used in later volumes.

I don't like this either. I could have waited the PHB2 for the Warlord (which no one asked for, by the way) and the Warlock, and I can wait for the Bard, the Sorcerer and the Barbarian (if they are still going to be separate classes) because they are (for me) 2nd-tier or even 3rd-tier character concepts. But the Druid in our games is always a 1st-tier concept, and we cannot wait, especially since putting it in another book it means not only to wait but also to expect less attention to the class in every supplement and adventures. My only small hope left is that they are preparing a suprise and have 9 classes instead of 8.

 

[Simia Saturnalia]

I don't like this either. I could have waited the PHB2 for the Warlord (which no one asked for, by the way)

Well, it sounds a lot like what I've been trying to do with the Bard flavor for a while now. The charismatic rebel at the front of the charge, the iron-jawed commander barking orders, the howling barbarian warsinger...the character whose voice and presence turn the tide.

But the Druid in our games is always a 1st-tier concept, and we cannot wait, especially since putting it in another book it means not only to wait but also to expect less attention to the class in every supplement and adventures.

I think that this fear is why they're working on expanding the definition of "core". If all the PHB/DMG/MMs they release are core books, they'll all show up in supplements in adventures. That is, near as I can tell, how 'core' is used; the part of the game that's assumed to be in play, and will thus be drawn upon for the bulk of published accessories.

If 3rd party publishers drop the ball on Expanded Core and give druids short shrift because they're in PHB II, that's their lookout.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

As fas as I know it was a throw-away line in a blog post where they said they considered it for about five seconds but like so much else, it'll now be repeated as gospel against the evil 4E.

Yup. Like so much else we will be laughing about this next year when the random panic attacks have subsided and the cold, hard facts are known.

And then we will repeat it all a few years down the road with the appearance of the next edition.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Exactly. I know that WotC is claiming the DDI is unnecessary, and it would be suicide for them to claim otherwise. But with the potential profit to be made and the chance to get off of the feast/ famine RPG sales rollercoaster, and get secured monthly subscription $... it's clearly in WotC's best interest to make the DDI as much of a necessity as they can.

No, it is in their best interest to make the DDI as useful as they can - but not a necessity.

The vast majority of gamers still plays offline, and I don't see that changing in the future. Online purchases of PDF products are vastly smaller than of print books. Thus, if they make the DDI a necessity, they will alienate the vast majority of D&D gamers with it - something that cannot be in their best interest.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

So you still have hope, eh, DaveMage?

I, on the other hand am of the mindset, to quote a great diplomat, "The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote." I get the impression from industry pundits that there is pressure to put out this edition from above.

Well, here's what one pundit not associated with WotC says:

At dinner, any concerns I might have about WotC screwing the pooch on the new D&D are 100% allayed by the news that the lead designer is none other than my boon compadre Rob Heinsoo. Whenever I’ve asked him what he’s working on over the last year plus, Rob has responded with this peculiar spasm of guilt, then mumbled something about new collectible projects. Now that I know what he couldn’t tell me it all makes sense. I absolutely trust that Rob knows what needs to be done to make the game faster and easier to run, while still hitting the pleasure centers of D&D fans everywhere, and has the design moxy to implement the vision. I am also very heartened to hear that Mike Mearls is on board as developer and James Wyatt is steering the story team.

So when asked what I think about the new master plan, I don’t need to lay out one of my usual long-winded, either-or scenarios. All I have to say is: “Heinsoo. Wyatt. Mearls*. It will rock, end of story.”

This pundit is none other than Robin D. Laws. And I'll take his opinion over any three so-called "Insiders".

 

[Li Shenron]

I think that this fear is why they're working on expanding the definition of "core". If all the PHB/DMG/MMs they release are core books, they'll all show up in supplements in adventures. That is, near as I can tell, how 'core' is used; the part of the game that's assumed to be in play, and will thus be drawn upon for the bulk of published accessories.

If 3rd party publishers drop the ball on Expanded Core and give druids short shrift because they're in PHB II, that's their lookout.

While I understand their approach, it lowers my choice of picking up the game. I want the full game immediately, and the expansions later. I don't buy a car today and the wheels next year because in the meantime at least I can turn it on, try the electronics, listen to the radio... Silly example, I know Just to say that it's a big blow for me, as big as if there wasn't a Rogue or a Cleric class (not as big as playing without a Fighter or Wizard). The druid is such a strong vast character concept for me that it's hard to pass, but at the same time I really don't want to buy a book 1 year later, full of other things which probably I'm not interested in (like "revised rules" and very narrow classes like those of 3.5 Complete X), just for a few useful pages.

Maybe it's better for me to think of 4e as a game that very simply won't have druids by default. A change that applies to any setting I can play in 4e. If I can survive that, then I can check the game out, and it won't even be that important whether I get a Druid class later, if I can live with the assumption that there will never be one.

 

[Vigilance]

David Noonan has already pontificated on how what the audience says will not be heeded. The PHB manuscript has been delivered, we are told, and the only function playtesting will serve at this point is to catch bugs, not make major changes in direction.

Um, well yeah.

Were you expecting them to have us write the book for them?

Ever hear the one about too many cooks?

Outside playtesting is to find bugs and make sure the book makes sense and flows logically to someone who didn't write it or have it explained to them by the writer.

Those major changes in direction you mention? Those are what the writer does.

If you want to see a game written by committee, go check out the 2e books.

I'd rather have a Cook who KNOWS he's the cook, and that I'm the diner.