Imagination... [OT???]

[ColonelHardisson]

Cowboys and knights... I've never thought that they fit. In westerns, the theme is always about civilization vs the wilderness. Knights are chivalrous soldiers who preserve the civilization of the time while cowboys (at least in cinema) would be more akin to rangers/lone wolf types, acting on their own accord (see The Searchers).

I think you have a more recent image of the cowboy in mind. It's actually a fairly recent phenomenon that they've been portrayed as antisocial, cold-blooded killers. Ford's Westerns (of which The Searchers is one of the better examples) helped usher in a new way of portraying the cowboy. But for the bulk of their existence in the popular consciousness, cowboys filled the knightly role for modern America.

Yes, knights are chivalrous...to those whom they consider "civilized." Same thing with cowboys in popular culture. Ethan in The Searchers is a very good example of this.

However, to see just how clearly the parallels can be drawn between knights and cowboys, at least their literary/cinematic counterparts, the Westerns of earlier decades - generally the 1930s and early 40s - are the ones to look at. Later Westerns, especially the Spaghetti Westerns, came as a result of decades of exploration by filmmakers and writers. Take a look at Westerns from the era when they first became popular - the serials of Gene Autry or Roy Rogers are perfect examples. If you look at the dime novels of the 19th century, quite often you see cowboys romanticized the same way knights were in legends. Regarding the "garden vs. the wilderness" theme (which I studied way too much about), cowboys and knights performed the same function - they roamed the land, making it safe for "civilized" folk, thus bringing civilization to the wilderness. ironically, as both helped tame the wilderness, they effectively were working towards their own extinction - that is, once the wilderness was tamed, there would be no need for them anymore.

 

[BMF]

There is no such thing as American Culture. Our "Culture" is a salad/soup made up of the cultures of the world. That is the reason we kick so much butt. We have huge chuncks of africa and europe and asia and india in our culture. We come from desert nomads and warriors who chased buffalo. We share the Blood of Ghengis Kahn, Alexander the Great, and Caesar Augustus. We are the place where all the cultures of the world are meeting, and so among the population we have someone that understands your country and culture, no matter where you come from. We are Vikings and Samauri. We have deserts, plains, lush forests, rolling hills, vast swamps, and enough scenery to inspire epic novels for the next thousand years.

That's awesome. And true too.

I disagree that we have no culture, though. Our culture is a blend of all others. That doesn't mean we don't have one, it means the one we have is an amalgamation of all others.

Voodoo, for example, is an American creation, but it comes from old African lore.

One of the things I always find remarkable is the obvious, yet common-place blendings of our culture. Things like chinese guys wearing hip-hop clothes and eating italian food. Sights like that always make me smile.

Music, is another story. There is a lot of very talented and creative musicians in America. Unfortunately, the big music publishers have formulated sounds and tried-and true marketing tactics so they stifle the creative process, or are too afraid to take a chance on a "new" sound. The truly creative folks never get the major promotion and world-wide attention because they are often seen as "strange" or to not have broad market appeal.

Sure, there are small publishing companies that will take a chance on a new sound, and the internet makes it easier than ever for a band to get exposure, but the big businesses still have a choak-hold on the industry.

I read an article recently about the fact that there isn't very many, if any, british or eueropen bands in the top charts (I forget which charts). The article went on to say that the pop sound is so scientifically engineered (i.e. Backstreet Boys, Britney Spears (SP??), and so on) that they have learned that it is cheaper and easier to find idiots here in america to get up on stage and pretend to be artists. So, no more Spice Girls. We get Britney instead.

Really though, it is more than marketing and a blended culture. Not only do we create the most "creative" movies, games and books (BTW, Gary is an American ). but we also create the most scientific inventions. In our brief 200+ year history, we have contributed more inventions to the world than any other country. The list is endless infact, light bulbs, Franklin stoves, automobile assembly lines, the internet, the personal computer, Windows, VCRs, televison, telephones, airplanes (although some disagree), luner exploration, weapons of mass destruction (thanks to the Germans), air conditioning, stealth jets, smart bombs, cancer treatments, and on and on and on.

We do that because of the individualist, and libertarian ideals of our society. Many of which stem from British Common Law and the dreams of Jefferson, Hamelton, Franklin and others, including some europeans like Adam Smith and Thomas Pain.

When you throw the doors wide open for people to do whatever they want (as long as they don't infringe on other's rights) and you shelter them with peace, there is no limit to what they can do.

I think the Europeans lack the stong individualist and endless oppertunity aspects in their cultures. They tend to be more socialist and have been plagued with hundereds of years of warfare.

All that isn't to say that Europe is devoid of creativity or scientific advancement. Cloneing was first achieved in Scotland. Steam engines were invented in Europe. Tolkien was British, cars were invented in europe (IIRC), microwaves were first discovered by the british military in WWII.

There are creative people in Europe, there are just a lot more in the U.S. Population-wise, we have more people when comparing country to country, but when compared to all of europe we are slightly smaller (by about 2-6 million IIRC). Of course, some parts of Europe are still strugglenig to come into the modern era and are still fighting about religion and have unstable governments.

So if yall want to compete you have to band together and change your governemts/economies to be more like ours!

 

[Bonedagger]

Really though, it is more than marketing and a blended culture. Not only do we create the most "creative" movies, games and books (BTW, Gary is an American ). but we also create the most scientific inventions. In our brief 200+ year history, we have contributed more inventions to the world than any other country. The list is endless infact, light bulbs, Franklin stoves, automobile assembly lines, the internet, the personal computer, Windows, VCRs, televison, telephones, airplanes (although some disagree), luner exploration, weapons of mass destruction (thanks to the Germans), air conditioning, stealth jets, smart bombs, cancer treatments, and on and on and on.

All that isn't to say that Europe is devoid of creativity or scientific advancement. Cloneing was first achieved in Scotland. Steam engines were invented in Europe. Tolkien was British, cars were invented in europe (IIRC), microwaves were first discovered by the british military in WWII.

There are creative people in Europe, there are just a lot more in the U.S. Population-wise, we have more people when comparing country to country, but when compared to all of europe we are slightly smaller (by about 2-6 million IIRC). Of course, some parts of Europe are still strugglenig to come into the modern era and are still fighting about religion and have unstable governments.

So if yall want to compete you have to band together and change your governemts/economies to be more like ours!

Americans don't make many inventions compared to their size. They just make good use of others.

Lunar exploration: Russian idea. Atomic bomb: Albert Einstein/Niels Bohr (The USA just build it with these guys help). Cars: Leonardo Da Vinci & Isaac Newton but a frenchguy made the first one. Steam Engine: A british guy. Railroad: A German guy. Steamtrain: An american guy.

Leonardo was also among one of the first to come up with the idea of a machine that can fly but 2 american brothers made the first one to work. (They didn't get much credit for it in their time though)

Could probably go on. Even such a simple thing as the scanner system wasn't invented in the USA.

You can read about the histories of inventions on this side:
http://inventors.about.com/library/bl/bl12.htm?PM=ss13_inventors

You see, when it comes to inventions countries don't take credit. Individuals do.

 

[Rune]

But Music !!! Co'mon !! The USA have the worst music in the world. (And Canada in not far behind ). It's alway the same thing. Hip hop, punk and country. Really no imagination in that.

What about JAZZ!!??!!

 

[Rune]

I think there are several reasons we seem more imaginative. The first is population. We have provinces (called states) the size of countries. We are a whole magnitude bigger. There is no such thing as American Culture. Our "Culture" is a salad/soup made up of the cultures of the world. That is the reason we kick so much butt. We have huge chuncks of africa and europe and asia and india in our culture. We come from desert nomads and warriors who chased buffalo. We share the Blood of Ghengis Kahn, Alexander the Great, and Caesar Augustus. We are the place where all the cultures of the world are meeting, and so among the population we have someone that understands your country and culture, no matter where you come from. We are Vikings and Samauri. We have deserts, plains, lush forests, rolling hills, vast swamps, and enough scenery to inspire epic novels for the next thousand years.

I would, for the most part, agree with this, but I would add that the reason that America has a better market for imagination is that all of the above comes available to us sans (economic) regulation or tariffs. This, combined with the above provides a huge pool of creativity for imagination industry.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Americans don't make many inventions compared to their size. They just make good use of others.

Lunar exploration: Russian idea. Atomic bomb: Albert Einstein/Niels Bohr (The USA just build it with these guys help). Cars: Leonardo Da Vinci & Isaac Newton but a frenchguy made the first one. Steam Engine: A british guy. Railroad: A German guy. Steamtrain: An american guy.

Leonardo was also among one of the first to come up with the idea of a machine that can fly but 2 american brothers made the first one to work. (They didn't get much credit for it in their time though)

Could probably go on. Even such a simple thing as the scanner system wasn't invented in the USA.

You can read about the histories of inventions on this side:
http://inventors.about.com/library/bl/bl12.htm?PM=ss13_inventors

You see, when it comes to inventions countries don't take credit. Individuals do.

I'm not sure about your point. America is a land of immigrants; there really isn't a race that is American. No matter how much bad press the US gets for race relations, it still is quite accepting of new people and ideas - when you think about it, we're remarkably peaceful considering all the various races/creeds/ideologies that live within close proximity to each other. That's more important than the provenance of inventions. The US takes ideas and makes them work. For that matter, being an American is, itself, an idea. That idea is what binds us together as a nation. Maybe that's why others outside the US criticize the US for jingoism; we have to declare that we're American because there are no racial, cultural, or religious cues to indicate so.

And the assertion that the US makes no good music is nonsense. There is an enormous varity of music here, that comes from literally thousands of cultural influences. On what is the assertion there is no good music here based? What gets played on Mtv, or makes the Billboard charts? That's pretty myopic.

 

[Rune]

For that matter, being an American is, itself, an idea. That idea is what binds us together as a nation. Maybe that's why others outside the US criticize the US for jingoism; we have to declare that we're American because there are no racial, cultural, or religious cues to indicate so.

That's an interesting point. It seems to suggest a sort of artificial nationalism--a constructed consciousness, if you will. Do you suppose that the necessity of creating a national attitude influences a proactive industry of imagination?

And the assertion that the US makes no good music is nonsense. There is an enormous varity of music here, that comes from literally thousands of cultural influences. On what is the assertion there is no good music here based? What gets played on Mtv, or makes the Billboard charts? That's pretty myopic.

Well said!

 

[ColonelHardisson]

That's an interesting point. It seems to suggest a sort of artificial nationalism--a constructed consciousness, if you will. Do you suppose that the necessity of creating a national attitude influences a proactive industry of imagination?

I don't know if I'd necessarily make that connection. I think, though, that the concept of becoming an American fires the imaginations of immigrants - basically, they can go from being something they had to be, to being something they want to be. I think that attitude has held over long after the ancestors of many Americans came here - a sense of wonder and pride that, despite modern cynicism's efforts to quash it, still lingers in our consciousness.

 

[Bonedagger]

I'm not sure about your point. America is a land of immigrants; there really isn't a race that is American. No matter how much bad press the US gets for race relations, it still is quite accepting of new people and ideas - when you think about it, we're remarkably peaceful considering all the various races/creeds/ideologies that live within close proximity to each other. That's more important than the provenance of inventions. The US takes ideas and makes them work. For that matter, being an American is, itself, an idea. That idea is what binds us together as a nation. Maybe that's why others outside the US criticize the US for jingoism; we have to declare that we're American because there are no racial, cultural, or religious cues to indicate so.

And the assertion that the US makes no good music is nonsense. There is an enormous varity of music here, that comes from literally thousands of cultural influences. On what is the assertion there is no good music here based? What gets played on Mtv, or makes the Billboard charts? That's pretty myopic.

My point was

You see, when it comes to inventions countries don't take credit. Individuals do.

I didn't say anything about America not being a great place to make an idea prosper. (That's what the USA is famous for )

Nice speech by the way

(But isn't the most normal reason people who don't like americans give, that it's because of the ignorance that follow the jingoism?)

 

[Sodalis]

I would like to believe that it is just the shere volume that USA produces. In any given field, the US churns out the most crap in the world, and of course, there are the occasional gems that gets noticed. But because of hollywood, and giant corporations, we are able to make a movie a minute, and market it.

this also holds true (in my opinion) for every other productions- if it is created and manufactured in the US, it will have its testing grounds here, and if it does well, then it will be marketed in other countries. if it is not doing well here, what makes you think that investors will risk it going flop in GrBritain? they wont.

that is why you only see the good movies from abroad, and then all the crap that your own country is makin. hell- i didnt even know that France had a movie studio until Le Pacte De Lupis came out last year. And if "Life is Beautiful" is the best you brits can come up with, it is a sad day in Guam...

edit- typos