Immediate Actions *can't* be used when flat-footed?

[Quartz]

In regards to falling (from a trap).

Looking at the rules for "surprise" and "traps".

In a surpise round someone (or something - like the trap) can take a move or standard action).

The trap going off is either a standard or move action (depends on what you end up with) - most are attack rolls or saving throws so they would be a standard action.

That is "setting it off".

For a pit trap the character has to fall. Falling is actually a move action - or actually involves movement. When that movement occurs is a matter of interpretation. But it is entirely reasonable to handle it on the falling character's turn in the initiative.

So surprise round - trap goes off, everyone roll initiative.

On the falling character's turn he "falls".

This is quite good: it allows a nearby character who beats the mage's initiative to try and grab the mage.

 

[Deset Gled]

Flat-footedness has always been handled with the various legal options: ranks in spot/listen even if cross classed, Alertness feat, Improved Initiative, Rogues on trap sweep 10ft ahead of the party for every -1 of the biggest armor check penalty.

We did houserule that BAB can be replace skill ranks for Sense Motive vs Feint in combat.

Skill ranks, Alertness, armor check penalties, and feinting have no bearing on flat-footedness.

 

[Diggus Rex]

Skill ranks, Alertness, armor check penalties, and feinting have no bearing on flat-footedness.

Spot/listen ranks reduce instances of being caught flat-footed by detecting hidden foes, thereby avoiding surprise. Alertness bonuses these skills.

Armor check penalties, which lower hide and move silent, reduce your odds of catching opponents flat-footed. A rogue next to the low Dex, fullplate clad cleric with no ranks in move silent or hide aint stealthy. A rogue within sneak attack distance long before the cleric is even heard is.

Feinting ... produces short term flat-footedness.

 

[The Souljourner]

Skill ranks, Alertness, armor check penalties, and feinting have no bearing on flat-footedness.

Was wondering about that myself... what are these various legal options? Sounds like a bunch of house rules (not that there's anything wrong with that)


[Edit] Bah, asked and answered before my post. That doesn't really change the fact that there are some distinctly funky rules about immediate actions and not being able to do them while flat footed.

I still think just having some of them labelled as usable while flatfooted would fix things (most notably feather fall).

And yeah, I'm with Caliban et al... this hasn't exactly been a huge problem for us (although to be fair, we're just starting our first game with a significant number of people who even have immediate actions).

-Nate

 

[occam]

From now on my traps will also do the usual effects and also summon a fiendish chicken to attack the party. That way I can make sure they're flat-footed, since they are in combat.

Sigging!

 

[airwalkrr]

I don't have time to read the whole convo, but here is my 2 cents.

An immediate action cannot be performed when you are flat-footed unless the description of the action specifically says otherwise. Stay the hand, for example, requires an immediate action that you cannot cast while flat-footed. However, nerveskitter, which would be pointless if you couldn't use it while flat-footed, states specifically in the spell description that it is an exception to the rule and therefore you can cast it even when flat-footed. The feather fall spell is neither. It is a free action that you can cast at any time, even when it is not your turn. Consequently, you can use it as long as you are capable of taking actions. In a sense, it is the original "immediate action," but I believe if it were to be revised, it would be an immediate action with a qualifier like nerveskitter stating you can cast it even while flat-footed.

Now regarding traps, IIRC there was an FAQ entry that explained that you are considered flat-footed against traps unless you have the uncanny dodge class ability. Hence, you cannot use immediate in response to a trap unless you have the uncanny dodge class ability.

 

[Diggus Rex]

[Edit] Bah, asked and answered before my post. That doesn't really change the fact that there are some distinctly funky rules about immediate actions and not being able to do them while flat footed.

Uhm ... sorry for the quick reply?

I still think just having some of them labelled as usable while flatfooted would fix things (most notably feather fall).

Feather Fall does specifically state that it's an exception to the flat-footed/ immediate action issue. SRD: "You can cast this spell with an instant utterance, quickly enough to save yourself if you unexpectedly fall."

 

[Hypersmurf]

Yes, there are ways in which this is a useful rule.

• Taking an action removes the flat-footed condition from the person who acted.

Not really.

Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed.

[glossary]flat-footed[/glossary]: Especially vulnerable to attacks at the beginning of a battle. Characters are flat-footed until their first turns in the initiative cycle. A flat-footed creature loses its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.

If I take an action like speaking or casting Feather Fall, but have not yet had my first turn in the initiative cycle, I'm still flat-footed by that definition.

The condition summary expresses it differently:
Flat-Footed: A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.

But this is a summary, and the Initiative section above elaborates on what 'not yet acted' means: "specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order".

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Feinting ... produces short term flat-footedness.

Feinting produces short term denied-Dex-bonus-to-AC. Not the same thing.

The feather fall spell is neither. It is a free action that you can cast at any time, even when it is not your turn.

If you're using immediate actions, Feather Fall is an immediate action - the text defining immediate actions specifically calls the spell out as being an immediate action, not a free action as the spell describes.

-Hyp.

 

[Diggus Rex]

Feinting produces short term denied-Dex-bonus-to-AC. Not the same thing.

LOL

Ok, a successful Feint produces a very flat-footed-like affect on AC.