Immediate Actions *can't* be used when flat-footed?

[blargney the second]

Nail, I think that's the point with #1. Warblades get better when they know there's a fight - just look at Battle Clarity.

 

[Nail]

Nail, I think that's the point with #1. Warblades get better when they know there's a fight - just look at Battle Clarity.

True.......hmmmmmm.....

 

[Diggus Rex]

Admit it. The system is just broken here, and there's NO quick patch. :\

Not here; there's no need for patch.

Ruling option #1 is correct. The difference between Blade's Concentration mod and his Will save mod is likely pretty a big bonus. Big bonuses can be balanced by restricting their availability: when you're not flat footed and have the manuever ready. Limitations to an ability dont make them suck.

I agree with Blargney

 

[Jarrod]

#1) If I ruled as you've outlined (surprises are handled as surprise rounds), then Blade would not be able to use his Immediate Action manuever outside of combat. That is: "Practically every time he's making a Will save out of combat, he's surprised. Since during the suprirse round he'd be flat-footed, he could not use this manuever to boost his Will save out of combat. That would suck."

Yup.

On the other hand, the other answer is "every time he is asked to make a Will save outside of combat, he succeeds". Especially with the presence of skill-boosting items.

You could also let characters make some sort of roll (equivalent to spot/listen) to not be surprised, which means they act in the surprise round - give both the trap and the character an initiative roll (trap gets, say, +0) and see if they reacted fast enough.

 

[Brian Gibbons]

Conversely, if we do NOT give out-of-combat traps a surprise round, then the system develops a strange "hiccup". Blade is only prohibited from using the manuever at the beginning of combat before he's been able to act normally.

The "hiccup" method is the easiest one to live with. It just means that the very beginning of a combat is a strange and confusing time, and I can accept that.

The alternative is to expand combat-timing systems into every corner of the game, and that way lies madness. Once you do that, you're going to end up with players readying and delaying (and if 3e, refocusing) at all times, to try to properly game the system.

Don't let a small perceived thematic inconsistency occurring in only the first round of combat create problems for your entire game.

The combat system is an abstraction. Combat rounds and consecutive actions exist to make the DM's life easier, and are concerned more with modeling game balance than out-of-combat reality.

If the discontinuity of how the first combat round operates versus how the non-combat world works were to bother me, I'd probably be far more hung up on movement issues (e.g., "How does a PC who I was describing as running side-by-side with another suddenly sprint 30' ahead and then pause to wait for the other to catch up?").

 

[Deset Gled]

Admit it. The system is just broken here, and there's NO quick patch. :\

That's what I thought about Immediate actions when I first heard about them. A nice idea that works really horribly in actual play.

Swift actions, I'm looking at you next.

 

[Bagpuss]

It's a 1st level alternate class feature in phbII

Mike

And a pretty cheap item in the Magic Item Compendium.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

Nail, I think that's the point with #1. Warblades get better when they know there's a fight - just look at Battle Clarity.

That still leaves the problem that a 3rd level rogue does not actually gain the +1 Dodge bonus from his Trap Sense ability when he sets off a trap that makes an attack roll... As well as making feather fall somewhat less useful.

Later
silver

 

[Diggus Rex]

That still leaves the problem that a 3rd level rogue does not actually gain the +1 Dodge bonus from his Trap Sense ability when he sets off a trap that makes an attack roll...

They still do. Trap Sense doesnt require an Immediate action.

As well as making feather fall somewhat less useful.

Feather Fall specifically says it can be used in an unexpected fall, even though it's an Immdeiate Action to cast

 

[Hypersmurf]

They still do. Trap Sense doesnt require an Immediate action.

But it's a Dodge bonus, lost when Dex bonus to AC is lost, such as when a 3rd level rogue (but not a 4th level rogue) is flat-footed.

-Hyp.