Immediate actions: too complex?

[Chris_Nightwing]

4th edition has gone a long way to eliminating various forms of bookeeping. Admittedly it has introduced new ones in terms of tracking powers and status effects, but mostly I'm finding the combat much smoother. That is except for immediate actions - in particular, limiting them to one per round. At low level it's fine as you'll likely only have one power that will require using one. Later however, when defenders can mark more than one target and when wizards and rangers have two or three reaction abilities, it becomes a real pain having to track whether you've used your action or not. You also seemingly can't use them on your turn - leading to some outrageous workarounds of your abilities. I ask whether it's necessary to limit immediate actions to one per round (without putting any research into powers that might abuse multiple immediate actions) and further, why you can't make OAs and immediate actions on your turn. Discuss!

 

[DracoSuave]

4th edition has gone a long way to eliminating various forms of bookeeping. Admittedly it has introduced new ones in terms of tracking powers and status effects, but mostly I'm finding the combat much smoother. That is except for immediate actions - in particular, limiting them to one per round. At low level it's fine as you'll likely only have one power that will require using one. Later however, when defenders can mark more than one target and when wizards and rangers have two or three reaction abilities, it becomes a real pain having to track whether you've used your action or not.

As for bookkeeping.... it's -really- easy to do so if you use cards. Have four cards, one representing a Standard, Move, and Minor action apiece, and one representing your Immediate. Beginning of your turn, 'untap' them. Tap them when you use them. It works if you have trouble remembering.

You also seemingly can't use them on your turn - leading to some outrageous workarounds of your abilities. I ask whether it's necessary to limit immediate actions to one per round (without putting any research into powers that might abuse multiple immediate actions)

Well, limiting them to one per round means that their use is no longer automatic and assumed, but actually a part of strategy. You have to make a decision whether you want to use your Combat Challenge, or that defensive buff that you're saving up. There's a tension there, and being able to make decisions is more fun than simply responding automaticly to what comes your way (which is what OAs are for.)

and further, why you can't make OAs and immediate actions on your turn. Discuss!

In order for your Immediate or Opportunity actions to be triggered, someone else must be doing something on your turn. If they are doing something on your turn, that means that they are performing an Immediate or Opportunity action on your turn. If this is the case, either someone -else- is also performing an Immediate or Opportunity action, or you're in the middle of performing an action. Even if they are responding to someone else, eventually the chain of actions comes back to you doing something.

So, therefore, if you'd have an opportunity to perform an immediate or opportunity action, you'd already have to be busy doing something else anyways, and therefore unable to perform that other action. Therefore you couldn't perform that immediate or opportunity action, and therefore there's no point permitting you to perform one.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

I can see that using cards for your actions is a handy way to track things, but it's that extra level of bookeeping beyond power cards that's a bit too much for some people. It's easy to remember to take your three actions in your turn but more challenging to remember one action instance throughout everyone else's turns.

I like the strategy argument - particularly for wizards and rangers who seem to accumulate various reaction powers. It's a bit disappointing for a fighter though who may put some effort into marking more than one foe, only really getting a chance to sticky down one of them.

As for the logic of not having the actions on your turn - the problem is that an enemy can just ready. They ready an action so that once your turn begins, they do their move or attack or other action that would normally trigger your immediate. Hard to hit wizard? Just attack him on his turn, before he's even moved. Fighter keeping you down? Just charge his squishy friend on his turn, both denying him a free attack and also forcing him to move over to you again.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Can't say this has been problematic so far. If there are problems, it is keeping in mind that you have an immediate action ability in the first place.

 

[James McMurray]

You could put a coin in front of you. If it's heads up your immediate action is available. I haven't had a problem with it, even playing a 12th level wizard. But if I did, I'd probably just add another checkbox to my tracker and mark it off when I used my immediate.

 

[keterys]

I have trouble seeing this as a real problem. Did you do anything not on your turn since you last acted? Okay, your immediate is used up. The turns should be fast enough that you don't have any trouble remembering and you can even note when you do use an immediate that your other immediates are no longer available until your next turn

 

[bganon]

Fighter keeping you down? Just charge his squishy friend on his turn, both denying him a free attack and also forcing him to move over to you again.

How does this work? What's the trigger? "The fighter starts his turn"? There's no way I'd allow that as a trigger, turns are too much an abstraction. It's not like the characters actually are just standing there motionless until their turn comes up. Having the trigger be "the fighter swings at me" would work, but then the monster's still eating an attack, and potentially something much worse than a basic melee swing. Presuming the fighter even does attack the monster; if he doesn't the monster loses the action completely.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

How does this work? What's the trigger? "The fighter starts his turn"? There's no way I'd allow that as a trigger, turns are too much an abstraction. It's not like the characters actually are just standing there motionless until their turn comes up. Having the trigger be "the fighter swings at me" would work, but then the monster's still eating an attack, and potentially something much worse than a basic melee swing. Presuming the fighter even does attack the monster; if he doesn't the monster loses the action completely.

It doesn't matter if the trigger is 'the Fighter attacks' or 'the Fighter moves' because the free attack the Fighter usually gets is gone. The free OA the Fighter usually gets for enemy movement is gone, so they can't be stopped. It's a really lame loophole.

 

[keterys]

That's an interesting rules loophole. I suspect it needs some verbiage like 'You count as acting on your turn when taking a readied action' so that it triggers OAs, challenges, dire radiance, etc.

 

[Celtavian]

re

Glad this was discussed. My group has been playing immediate actions wrong.

I've been giving the fighter multiple attacks for Combat Challenge. And we've been allowing kobolds and goblins to shift endlessly. This should make their powers seem more reasonable.