Immediate actions...

[IceTea]

...as a DM I have recently begun experiencing the players exploiting the rules as I see them. One example the has bothered me several times over several sessions and after discussing it with the players I have decided to take the question here, as we still regularly encounter this question.

Protection Devotion : Once per day as an immediate action, you can activate a protective aura. While it is active, you gain a +2 sacred (if your deity is good or neutral) or profane (if your deity is evil) bonus to AC, as does every ally within 30 feet of you. This bonus increases by 1 for every four character levels you possess (maximum +7 at 20th level). This effect lasts for 1 minute.

This is just one of the abilities with immediate action that bothers me, I have encountered others but this is a good starting point.

Immediate action : An immediate action is very similar to a swift action, but can be performed at any time — even if it's not your turn.

The wording here is not perfectly clear to me, "at any time" has been used against me several times while discussing the topic. After confirming a hit on the cleric with devotion he activated the ability to suddenly negate the hit. That is after the dice told him he would have been hit. Although one could argue that it is Divine so your God saw fit to save you but in my ears that is just bla bla and more bla...

Help me please,

 

[Vegepygmy]

An immediate action consumes a tiny amount of time. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time during a round, even when it isn’t your turn. Using an immediate action on your turn counts as your swift action for that turn. If you use an immediate action when it isn’t your turn, you can’t use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn. You can’t use an immediate action when you’re flat-footed.

I don't see anything there that would allow an immediate action to "undo" what has already occurred. If the attack roll has been made, and a hit has been announced, it's too late.

If, on the other hand, the action ("I attack the cleric,") has been announced, but the result has not yet been determined, I think the immediate-actor should be able to "interrupt" with his immediate action. But you pay your nickel and you take your chances; the attack might have missed anyway.

 

[El Mahdi]

It can be used at any time, even if it's not your turn...but there are other restrictions to it.

As per the D20 SRD:

Immediate Actions

Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time - even it it's not your turn. Casting Feather Fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.

Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action unti after your next turn, if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.

So, it counts as your swift action for the round, and cannot be used flat-footed (surprised, haven't acted yet in an encounter, etc.).

Hope this helps.

(I took too damn long to type and Vegepygmy beat me to the punch...Drat! - and I agreed with everything he said.)

 

[parinho7]

The wording here is not perfectly clear to me, "at any time" has been used against me several times while discussing the topic. After confirming a hit on the cleric with devotion he activated the ability to suddenly negate the hit. That is after the dice told him he would have been hit.

if you attack and the attack is successful then you do damage, if they activate the ability AFTER the attack there is nothing they can do about it. this is just cheating

ooooh i hate cheaters, strike them down they diserve to be killed and resurrected one level lower

 

[Malachei]

I think El Mahdi has done a great job in pointing out the limitations of immediate actions.

So, it counts as your swift action for the round, and cannot be used flat-footed (surprised, haven't acted yet in an encounter, etc.).

Just because of some aspects of high-level play, I'd like to add: it is possible to use an immediate action before you have acted in an encounter, if you are not flat-footed (such as by use of the foresight spell).

Regarding the OP: It's clearly not working the way your player wants, as has been pointed out by others, above. I'd rule he can announce the use of an immediate ability before the die roll his ability is affecting.

A more general comment to immediate actions: I like the concept and clarification the update of swift and immediate actions brought. However, I'd dislike my players having several versions of the same spell or power, mainly for flavor and mechanical reasons.

Some of the immediate action spells are great, such as Featherfall -- everybody agrees that this should be an Immediate Action spell.

I also see a more general issue with Swift Action (and Immediate Action) spells. Some are affecting full-round attacks (such as Wraithstrike), and you will see your Sorcerer/Rogue/Arcane Trickster cast this every round in a tough fight, effectively negating all his opponents' armor boni -- it's a third level spell, and yes, it should seriously help getting things done -- but have a look at the armor boni many high-level monster have, and you see using it every round is a no-brainer.

I also dislike that swift and immediate action spells are a way of nerfing the Quicken Spell feat. I much prefer my players taking Quicken Spell and paying the cost for the upgrade in the action economy.

 

[Runestar]

There are precedents. For example, zephyr dance (counter from tome of battle, +4AC as immediate action) lets you use it right after your opponent resolves his attack, but before he rolls for damage. So you are allowed to decide whether you want to use it to add +4AC after knowing whether your opponent hit you or not. However, you won't know how much his attack roll exceeds your AC by, so there is no guarantee that using said maneuver will always turn a hit into a miss.

Which makes sense to me. Otherwise, it would be very difficult to correctly time the use of such AC-increasing immediate action abilities if you don't know if they will hit or miss.

However, in light of what is trangressing in the OP's game, I would advise the DM to not reveal the result of the die roll. The players will know if they have hit or been hit, but not by how much.

 

[HoboGod]

The RAW are shaky as usual. In my experience, however, this kind of behavior should not be tolerated. A player once came to me and said that moving into the adjacent square of a size large creature with 10' reach as a movement action preceding an attack action doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. His argument was the PHB says "all squares within the target's reach are threatened" and interpreted that as all those squares are considered one threatened square. I knew differently, I knew that's not what it meant. However, it was a pitiful encounter of one ogre against six 5th level PCs, never meant to be anything more than a mild scare for the distracted spellcaster. I wasn't about to spend twenty minutes looking through the core books for the specific entry describing the implications of reach because the fighter doesn't want to take the 40% chance of taking 16 damage. After a minute of trying to reason with him, I layed down the hammer and said "No, the rules are for DM interpretation, not player interpretation." The players were happier for it, they didn't realize it, they didn't apreciate it, but if I took the time to argue then I'd get everyone screaming and/or bored until they forgot completely why they were fighting this stupid ogre.

Do the same. Be a strict DM. Encourage your players to argue their case before game begins and after game wraps up. If they can't convince you of their point, but remain persistent, tell them to find some examples and you'll sleep on it. A good way of getting them to stay fair is by threatening the golden rule. I assure you, when they start saying things like "It's only logical I should be able to call shots," they'll change their song when you tell them that every tiger you've ever seen on the Discovery Channel goes for the neck.

 

[Jhaelen]

So you are allowed to decide whether you want to use it to add +4AC after knowing whether your opponent hit you or not. However, you won't know how much his attack roll exceeds your AC by, so there is no guarantee that using said maneuver will always turn a hit into a miss.
[...]
However, in light of what is trangressing in the OP's game, I would advise the DM to not reveal the result of the die roll. The players will know if they have hit or been hit, but not by how much.

And that's the problem: I think, many DMs simply tell the players what AC they hit, potentially making these powers more powerful than intended.

Having said that, in my games so far this kind of power hasn't felt overpowered even if I told the players what AC I hit.

 

[Runestar]

And that's the problem: I think, many DMs simply tell the players what AC they hit, potentially making these powers more powerful than intended.

Which normally isn't an issue, since the avenues of abusing this knowledge are few and far in between (save maybe knowing how much to PA/expertise for, but even then, poor rolls can screw you over unless you have weapon supremacy).

To me, the player in the OP's game is correct in his interpretation, since "at any time" means that it can be used "at any time", including the short window of opportunity after you have been hit but before damage is rolled. Just that this has unintended ramifications because attack rolls are no secret in his game (I am fairly sure you are not supposed to reveal them), and DMs tend to roll damage together with attack rolls to expedite combat.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Some of the immediate action spells are great, such as Featherfall -- everybody agrees that this should be an Immediate Action spell.

For the record, I don't agree that feather fall should be an immediate action spell.

I think feather fall was just fine as written in the PHB: a free action that you could explicitly take out of turn. The problem with feather fall as an immediate action (IMO) is that you can't cast it when flat-footed. Thus, if you're walking along the edge of a cliff and it crumbles, causing you to fall, you can cast feather fall, because you're not flat-footed (because there is no combat). But if you're walking along the same cliff and an invisible enemy pushes you over the cliff, you can't cast feather fall because you're in combat and flat-footed. I think that's dumb.