Immortals Handbook (aka The Worship Points System)

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Bjorn!

Yes Steve Martin the Comedian. The whole ramblin' guy thing was him.

From "The Jerk?". I have seen all his movies, though I only have a vague recollection of his ramblin'.

Bjorn was my first D&D character, for a while I played a second version with the last name Donnerson. Actually, Bjorn was Sven at first. When I registered on the D&D boards I mispelled Donnerson and kept it the new way when I came here. Most of my characters names involve a word for thunder or lightning (Donner, Thur) and something meaning son of (son, sen, or once ski) My Name is Dan and I live in the US, although I do go by the nickname Moose. Okay that was way off topic.

Pleased to meet you Dan.

The "Master of Space Time and Dimension" thing was more like a joke that only I found funny.

Hey! Laugh and the world laughs with you...

I reworked strength, I was wrong. Ok tell me where I screw up here.

50 str=12.8 full lifting capacity
+10 *4
60= 51.2
70= 404.8
80= 1619.2
90= 6476.8

No pencil, no paper, no calculator, No PHB, I'll be suprised if its all right.

You have the principle right but instead of quodrupling str 60 (51.2) you have nearly octupled it. (It should be 204.8)

So the actual figure should be 3238.4 tons.

 

[oliverhenshaw]

Avatars

I hope you're not as right as you think about Avatars. Everything i've seen suggetss to me that Divine Rank and what type of God the creature is counts for a lot.

Avatars have half the original's DR and lose two off the powers that gods have - that we know from the D&DG thread.

What I'd expect, based on the range of their Divine Aura and that it seems the most elegant solution, is the the third major difference is the way the effect of Divine (Salient? I forget) Abilities is caculated, and possibly the number owned.

Several of the Divine Abilites vary in 'magnitude' with DR, and also in 'scale' with Divine Status (ie Demigod, Lesser God etc.) and examples of this can be seen in the Dragon preview. I believe that the scale of the Avatar's DAs will not be the same as that of the 'parent' deity, instead either being calculted from the Status of a deity with the avatar's DR or the status of a demigod.

Those are the two simplest options that fit what the previewsof Avatars we've seen. Another option would be a new Divine Status of 'Avatar', parallel to Demigod perhaps but with slightly different features - but I think the framework is there without creating a new category.

And we also know from the D&DG thread that DivStatus also adds to the number of DA that can be bought with DR. So Avatars could be expected not to recieve all the bonus DRs that their parent Greater God gets.

And all these differences are more subtle, so assumed into the descriptions of individual Avatars.


All in all, it seems to me that DivStatus plays such a large role in a Deity's power and abilities that it must factor into the CR calculations as well as Divine Ranks.

Some of the above might also go some way to mitigating the apparent similairties between Iuz (demonic creature lets not forget, evein if 'just' a demigod) and Nerull (DR17? and a Greater God) who must have capabilities beyond Iuz's.

 

[poilbrun]

Re: Avatars

Hi U_K!

Jusqt a quick question : I'm not really sure from what I've seen so far that I'll like the D&Dg book as far as playing gods is concerned. I may use it for normal play, but I believe it is overly simplified to be interesting. Is there any chance, even if you publish the book to be 100% compatible with D&Dg, that we'll be able to see the IH in its original form?

Thanks!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Avatars

Hi oliver mate!

I hope you're not as right as you think about Avatars.

I'll make my final decision when I get D&Dg, but from what I know at the moment I don't like them and will (almost certainly) change Avatars in the IH.

I'll make my reasoning therein. Primarily its in three parts:

- Gods should not be able to create beings as powerful as themselves/or almost as powerful as themselves in and of their own power.

- Equally, creation should require a measure of the deities Divine Power.

- Avatars do not fulfill the roles as 'middle-men' in campaigns; interacting with mortals if they are virtually equal to the deities themselves. Under those circumstances Avatars become irrelevant.

Everything i've seen suggetss to me that Divine Rank and what type of God the creature is counts for a lot.

I agree. But the bottom line is that if Odin creates an Avatar its still a 60HD DR9 Lesser God. For no cost!

Avatars have half the original's DR and lose two off the powers that gods have - that we know from the D&DG thread.

The difference in power is apparent, but negligable.

I also don't like how they have ignored HD/Levels. HD/Levels should count for something!

What I'd expect, based on the range of their Divine Aura and that it seems the most elegant solution, is the the third major difference is the way the effect of Divine (Salient? I forget) Abilities is caculated, and possibly the number owned.

Several of the Divine Abilites vary in 'magnitude' with DR, and also in 'scale' with Divine Status (ie Demigod, Lesser God etc.) and examples of this can be seen in the Dragon preview. I believe that the scale of the Avatar's DAs will not be the same as that of the 'parent' deity, instead either being calculted from the Status of a deity with the avatar's DR or the status of a demigod.

Those are the two simplest options that fit what the previewsof Avatars we've seen. Another option would be a new Divine Status of 'Avatar', parallel to Demigod perhaps but with slightly different features - but I think the framework is there without creating a new category.

And we also know from the D&DG thread that DivStatus also adds to the number of DA that can be bought with DR. So Avatars could be expected not to recieve all the bonus DRs that their parent Greater God gets.

And all these differences are more subtle, so assumed into the descriptions of individual Avatars.

Obviously Divine Ranks count, but ignorance of HD/Levels is a stupid move in many ways. Zeus is clearly more powerful than Odin even though they both have the same Divine Rank.

Levels I would prescribe to upon initially seeing most of D&Dgs stats:

Minimum/Average/Maximum*

*For the purpose of NPCs

Quasi/Hero-deity 20/30/40
Demigod 30/40/50
Lesser God 40/50/60
Intermediate God 50/60/70
Greater God 60/70/80

The fact that they have also omitted Challenge Ratings tells another story.

All in all, it seems to me that DivStatus plays such a large role in a Deity's power and abilities that it must factor into the CR calculations as well as Divine Ranks.

Some of the above might also go some way to mitigating the apparent similairties between Iuz (demonic creature lets not forget, evein if 'just' a demigod) and Nerull (DR17? and a Greater God) who must have capabilities beyond Iuz's.

I agree that Nerull is more powerful than Iuz despite having the same HD/Levels. But Nerull should be vastly more powerful!

Iuz had 165hp in 1st ed. and Nerull 400!

Anyone who says hit points are irrelevant to such beings doesn't have a clue either!

Hi poilbrun mate!

I see your post - I'll reply a little later!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Re: Avatars

Hi U_K!

Hi poil brun mate!

Just a quick question :

Anytime mate!

I'm not really sure from what I've seen so far that I'll like the D&Dg book as far as playing gods is concerned. I may use it for normal play, but I believe it is overly simplified to be interesting. Is there any chance, even if you publish the book to be 100% compatible with D&Dg, that we'll be able to see the IH in its original form?

Well, the only real difference between the 'old' WPS and the revised IH rules is the measure of divinity. The IH won't lose anything that makes it unique, similarly if I perceive anything in D&Dg I don't agree with; I'll change it (and give my reasoning why) - simple as that!

I think the IH will present new directions and options for both players and DMs; the fact that it now derives its basics from D&Dg was simply for the sake of brevity (for both myself in the writing, and other peoples campaigns in familiarity and conversion).

So to answer your question, the revised IH rules are still the original rules for the most.

Examining the difference in how WotC and I measured Divinity really comes down to scale and levelling. Their Odin has 60 levels and my Odin had 160 levels. On the one hand less levels is a good thing - since that requires less work on both the part of DM and players. However, on the other hand it does take away from the cosmic scale of things when beings like Azathoth are represented with a mere 72HD (not to mention some of their deity levels border on the blasphemous - Elminster is a better spellcaster than Odin! ).

Whether I would ever finish off my own Divinity scaling I don't know. I don't have the time or inclination at this point...I'll have to think about it.

 

[S'mon]

However I plan on having a class before where they currently place Qd/Hd. However, I have not yet decided the properties/name of this class yet...

"Saint"?

I have the old Dragon article on Saints we acquired in the US in '97 BTW.

 

[Impeesa]

Saw the sneak peek on the WotC site.... is it just me, or does anyone else really not like the look of the 'auto-20' ablity? Seems.... wrong...

--Impeesa--

 

[Zelda Themelin]

I am kind of curious how you like WotH 3rd edition D&D take on gods this far.

I myself find it truly lame, unfortunaly, just like I expected, though I was hoping for something more.

I don't like the fact that there is going to be epic books, but gods aren't 'epic' for one thing.

I don't think they are powerful enough. Or maybe it is, that they are powerful in a wrong way. I sure don't like how some of those special abilites sound like.

For me stats and hitpoints and levels do mean a lot, when I see them in paper. Never mind what other abilites they have, if they gods get shaft on basic level of actual game system, they became sorry creatures compared to my idea what such beings should be.

Yep, my opinion is more complicated one, but english comes slow to me now, too tired I'm afraid.

IMO only, of course.

Well, maybe they do it right in 4th edition, then again, probably not.

Krusty, I'd for one, rather see your original variation of gods, it sounded much better in my mind, than what I am seeing now.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Simon!

"Saint"?

Possibly!? That was one option. It seems a bit confusing to class evil beings as Saints but I may go for it.

I was also thinking about kicking Disciples upstairs a bit. Bringing them in line just beneath Quasi/Hero-deity status.

I have the old Dragon article on Saints we acquired in the US in '97 BTW.

Nice, is it many pages (I can't remember)?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Impeesa mate!

Saw the sneak peek on the WotC site.... is it just me, or does anyone else really not like the look of the 'auto-20' ablity? Seems.... wrong...

Personally I would have kept things like that for Deities of Luck (double portfolio).

It may present a number of problems - though it is only for Greater Gods - which is the highest rated rank in D&Dg.

Greater Deity with vorpal weapon seems annoying to say the least!

I printed out the excerpt and web enhancement.

I was hoping for Divine Monsters - wishful thinking I suppose.

Not sure about the validity of the web enhancement - a Quasi-deity with 13 hit points, a Demigod with 30 hit points.

One other point is that they seem to have given him an extra 20 to AC for no apparent reason!?