Immortals Handbook (aka The Worship Points System)

[Upper_Krust]

A post from the old thread.

Hi there Kalanyr!

I believe that the Outsider PC's Kalanyr, Unspellable Formian and the Death Slaad would for the most part by UK's Outsider bonus range between Intermediate and Greater Gods. LOL.

That bonus is only for Hit Dice though - not character levels.

If Kalanyr was 155HD then he would gain the Greater God template. But as only 20HD he only gains the Quasi-deity Template.

Remember character levels alone do not grant Divinity.

Upper Krust under your system what would Kalanyr look like, without giving too much of your system away of course?

Well, the Quasi-deity Divinity Template wouldn't make that much difference on top of 155 effective levels.

To be fair, I would have to go into specifics to give you a good idea of what options are available...and the options pretty much cover almost everything you could imagine.

Personally, I think Kalanyr would be better served advancing via HD. He would gain 60th-level Cleric and Sorceror abilities as part of his 'spirit' deity nature. With the double War Portfolio and Metamartial Feats he could concentrate on building his martial skills.

As a Quasi-deity new powers and abilities would be limited. Though Kalanyr would probably qualify for most Feats (in the Immortals Handbook)

But as a 155HD Greater God they could have a breathe a volley of vorpal swords; cause hearts to explode from target chests at range; always critical hit or even cause permanent damage with his attacks! Options are (almost) limitless.

Base Line (Without a trace of Divine Power): (For Portfolios Probably Magic or War + Chaos or Evil)

Kalanyr, Master of the Demon Blades, Knower of the Unknown, Favoured of Lolth, Slayer of Devils, The Hidden Weapon, Torturer of Souls and General of the DemonWeb, The Oozing One

I would say War + Evil, or even War + War would be appropriate for the "Master of the Demon Blades".

Anarchic Balor (20HD) Wizard 20/Loremaster 10/Archmage 5/Arcane Devotee(Lolth) 5/Divine Oracle(Lolth) 10/Planeshifter 10/ WarWizard 5/ Fighter 10/Weaponmaster (Longsword) 10/Blackguard 10/Cleric 10 (Lolth)/Contemplative (Lolth) 10/Ranger 20 (Foes Baatezu +5/Tanar'i +4/Celestials +3/Drow +2/Miscellaneous Fiends +1)

Well, first things first, Kalanyr as described is more powerful than Lolth.

Okay (equivalent) 155th-level, with 20HD as Balor automatically gains the Quasi-deity Divinity Template.

Challenge Rating = 45

Wearer of the Crown of the Arcane Mind
+8 Deflection Bonus to AC,+8 Armour Bonus to AC,+20 Enhancement Bonus to Int,Wis,Cha,+8 Insight Bonus to saves,SR 11+Wearer's Level, Stores Known Spells like a spellbook of infinte size and for free.

Spell Resistance at 11 +1/level is a very powerful ability.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi CR mate!

UK - I updated the other thread with a wealth chart for levels 21-200, extrapolating from the book as best I could. Check it out!

Thanks mate! I will.

Thanks mate! You're the only one I could thuink of who would need such a thing...

True!

 

[S'mon]

Re: A post from the old thread.

Not necessarily.

Some characters will pursue personal power rather than the glory of divinity.

Like Doomstar!

My impression is that magic-user types are much less likely to pursue the divine path than are warrior types, and they gain much less by so doing. Eg in my campaign the Archmage-Emperor Gallak became a deity, but he's a pretty weak deity. If he'd been first & foremost a warrior (like Thrin) he'd have gained much more through ascension: geometric hit point increases & handy magical powers are both _much_ more useful added onto a high-hp, magic-poor character.

This explains, BTW, why many campaign worlds have 40th-level Wizards but no 40th-level Fighters - the Fighters became gods!

 

[Moon_Goddess]

Hi all!

[Deity Conversion Manual (Appendix 3): A quick set of rules so that you can easily convert any deity from previous incarnations of the game.

I'm very interested in seeing how this can be done and still fit in the d20 license, not that I'm doubting you, just seems hard to pull off.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Re: Immortals Handbook (aka The Worship Points System)

Hello there!

I'm very interested in seeing how this can be done and still fit in the d20 license, not that I'm doubting you, just seems hard to pull off.

Lets just say the wording is vague where it needs to be.

ie. "previous incarnations of the game"

as opposed to

"previous editions of Dungeons & Dragons"

 

[Kalanyr]

Thanks Upper Krust.

Hmm, So Outsiders are in general better served by advancing HD than by advancing in class levels?

And what CR do Lolth & Asmodeous have under your system? (I realised when I constructed Kalanyr that he was probably nastier than Asmodeous)

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Kalanyr mate!

Thanks Upper Krust.

Don't mention it mate!

Hmm, So Outsiders are in general better served by advancing HD than by advancing in class levels?

Well, I prefer to think of Outsiders (and Elementals) evolving as they draw cosmic energy (same thing as worship points) from the planes themselves. Remember these beings are essentially spirits.

The 'natural' absorption of cosmic energy is a generally slow process which is why the most powerful of such beings are almost always the oldest.

So over time they evolve absorbing this cosmic energy like plants absorb sunlight. Combat with other such spirit beings instead of gaining them experience allows them to absorb some of their opponents essence (think the 'quickening' in Highlander).

This also solves why Outsiders don't 'naturally' have class levels since they spend most of their time fighting amongst their peers.

And what CR do Lolth & Asmodeous have under your system? (I realised when I constructed Kalanyr that he was probably nastier than Asmodeous)

Well I can't officially describe Lolth and Asmodeus in the Immortals Handbook but to discuss them here informally the most important point is their divine status.

No matter what stance you take there will always be some incongruity.

One parallel I always use however is:

1. Oinodaemon = Demon Monarch = Greater Archduke
2. Daemon Master = Demon Prince = Archduke
3. Daemonic Champion = Demon Lord = Duke of Hell
4. Major Daemon = Major Demon = Major Devil

1st Ed. dogma had #2 equal to Lesser Gods.

As far as I can tell 3rd Ed. dogma will have #1 equal to Demigods.

Then 3rd Ed. will compromise itself by having Lolth (in the Forgotten Realms) equal to, an Intermediate Goddess.

Probably the most logical solution (and the one I would advocate) would be to have #1 equal to Lesser Gods. So if we convert Outsider deities from their 1st Ed. stats the simplest method is to divide their hit points by 3, therefore:

1st Ed. hp
60-89hp = Quasi-deity
90-119hp = Hero-deity
120-179hp = Demigod
180-239hp = Lesser God
240-359hp = Intermediate God
360-480hp = Greater God
etc.

So Asmodeus (199hp) converts to 66HD and Lolth (66hp) converts to 60HD (minimum for a Lesser Power).

Therefore the revised CR of both are (HD + Lesser God Divinity Template):

Asmodeus CR40
Lolth CR39

 

[Upper_Krust]

Character Conversion Manual.

Hi all!

I think a few people earlier were interested in seeing the rules for converting characters from previous editions, so here it is:

To convert characters from previous incarnations of the game, the most important factors are character class (type) and the number of different classes.

Character Class (type)

Experience tables from previous incarnations were not equal. To compensate for these facts multiply the levels as follows.

Clerics Levels above 9th: x0.6
Druids Levels above 13th: (14th) x2; (15th) x4
Levels above 16th: x1.33
Fighters Levels above 9th: x0.66
Paladins/Rangers Levels above 9th: x0.8
Rogues/Bards Levels above 11th: x0.58
Wizards Levels same

eg. (former) 25th-level Cleric
16 levels above 9th x0.6 = 9.6 (round down, although that would mean the character has 60% XP in their current level already).
9 + 9 = (now) 18th-level Cleric

eg. (former) 30th-level Paladin
21 levels above 9th x0.8 = 16.8
9 + 16 = (now) 25th-level Paladin

eg. (former) 19th-level Druid
6 levels above 13th. Level 14 = +2, Level 15 = +4, remaining Levels 4 (16-19) x1.33 = 5.32
13 + 2 + 4 + 5.32 = (now) 24th-level Druid

Number of Different Classes

First Class Levels same
Second Class Levels x0.8
Third Class Levels x0.6
Fourth Class Levels x0.4
Fifth Class Levels x0.2

eg. (former) 62nd-level Cavalier/28th-level Cleric/27th-level Wizard
First Class
53 Cavalier Levels above 9th x 0.8 = 42.4
9 + 42 = 51st-level Cavalier
Second Class
19 Cleric Levels above 9th x 0.6 = 11.4
9 + 11 = 20 (second class) x 0.8 = 16th-level Cleric
Third Class
27 Wizard Levels remain same
27 (third class) x 0.6 = 16th-level Wizard
Total: 83 levels

The total class levels can then be distributed amongst the classes at the players discretion.

 

[poilbrun]

This system is great, but isn't it only usable for AD&D? It looks like it wouldn't work too well with D&D... By the way, would Immortals be supported under your system as low-level gods or are they just Epic Level Characters but with immortality?

Another question : while converting "official" gods (by this I mean gods I have not created especially to play using the Immortals Handbook) to play with the IH (is this how we should shorten Immortals Handbook? ), for example, gods from the Forgotten Realms, is there a guideline to know how many worshippers they have?

I believe it wouldn't be too difficult to try to put a number on the followers for a god that is only influent in the FR (Torm, Bane,...), but it becomes difficult when you talk about gods such as Corellon Larethian or Moradin which are found in the FR, but also in Greyhawk, and probably on other worlds...

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi poilbrun mate!

This system is great, but isn't it only usable for AD&D? It looks like it wouldn't work too well with D&D...

That might be something to do with the fact I don't have original D&D (except for Wrath of the Immortals).

By the way, would Immortals be supported under your system as low-level gods or are they just Epic Level Characters but with immortality?

If I were to convert them I would simply balance them as deities:

Initiate = Quasi-deity
Temporal = Hero-deity
Celestial = Demigod
Empyreal = Lesser God
Eternal = Intermediate Gpd
Hierarch = Greater God

the IH (is this how we should shorten Immortals Handbook? ),

Sure!

Another question : while converting "official" gods (by this I mean gods I have not created especially to play using the Immortals Handbook) to play with the IH, for example, gods from the Forgotten Realms, is there a guideline to know how many worshippers they have?

I believe it wouldn't be too difficult to try to put a number on the followers for a god that is only influent in the FR (Torm, Bane,...), but it becomes difficult when you talk about gods such as Corellon Larethian or Moradin which are found in the FR, but also in Greyhawk, and probably on other worlds...

Yes there is a simple guideline.

Using worship points you can determine the exact (if you want) number of clerics, lay clergy, devoted worshippers and typical worshippers.

Remember that status is decided by WP so a deity must have between the minimum amount for that status and the minimum for the next status.

eg. the minimum for a Demigod is 500,000 WP, the minimum for a Lesser God is 5 million. Therefore all Demigods have between 500,000 and 5 million WP - anything outside this and they change status.

(for NPC gods) To determine WP when you only know status, first determine levels (using Deity Conversion Manual if needed), the fairest method is to base WP on levels (even though this won't be the case in practice).

- So the minimum amount is status minimum multiplied by the percentage (divided by 10) of levels gained between current and next status.

eg. A 100th-level Intermediate God has a minimum 50 million WP.
Minimum Intermediate God Levels are 80, minimum Greater God Levels are 120. The difference is 40, therefore 100th-level is 50% between the two. 50 divided by 10 = 5.

So a 100th-level (NPC) Intermediate God would have typically (50 million x 5) 250 million WP.