Immortal's Handbook continuation thread

[Dark Wolf 97]

Thanks!
And I doubt it deseves hot coffee in the lap, but perhaps mildly warm coffee.

 

[poilbrun]

Divinity can attach itself to anything as well as anyone.

Woohoo! I can't wait to have a God of chairs!

 

[Eldorian]

By comparing character that have it with those who don't. Cloak of Resistance is a very important and necessary item.

Sure you can playtest the existance of an item such as the cloak of resistance, but how in the world do you playtest the prices, espceially since I advocate a simple doubling in price? The in game effects boil down to a 5% difference, that would be astronomically hard to test.

That's real-life economics. In a game, you have to consider balance itslef. If something is so important that damn near everybody has to have it, it needs to cost less to make it more likely that people who need it will get it.

That's game balance. The more powerful an ability is, the more it costs to get it, obviously. Thats why we don't give vorpal weapons to children... So they don't rise up and kill the parents (ie, low levels killing your big bad monsters)

To be honest, however, that is totally beside the point. Just using your old argument about the rate of magical combat compared to physical, I can easily demonstrate my point. You see, for physical combat, defense copsts half that of offense. Weapons are on the 2000 scale and armor is on the 1000 scale. Just the same, magical combat is the same way, except the saves increase slightly differently. Saves increase based on spell level (gained every two levels for most) and ability scores (which go on the 1000 scale but you need twice as much in order to get equal effect), and therefore can be averaged out as if on the 2000 scale. Again, saves, the defense, should be on the 1000 scale.

Magical offencive items? Where? Oh, you mean ability scores. Guess what, they aren't just for magical offence. They do many other things, including magical defence (wisdom) skills(Int), and.. err.. what does Cha do again? oh yah. not much unless you have a nifty class =P. Plus, I'm reading my DMG here.. at it says

A +2 cloak of charsima costs 4k, which adds 1 to save DCs.
A +1 cloak of resistance costs 1k, which adds 1 to saves.

A +4 cloak of charisma costs 16k, which adds 2 to save DCs.
A +2 cloak of resistance costs 4k, which adds 2 to saves.

A +6 cloak of charisma costs 36k, which adds 3 to save DCs.
A +3 cloak of resistance costs 9k, which adds 3 to saves.

hmm.. I don't know if I've got the math right (ok, I do) it looks to me like the item that increases save DCs costs 4 times as much as the protection, not twice as you claimed. And there are 5 levels of protection, while the offence sports only 3.

I would probably concur that SR is overpriced . . .

Not all hope is lost...

. . . but you can't compare saves and SR. They are two totally different methods of defense, and SR is far more potent.

Are we playing the same game?!?! SR protects against spells. Spells only. Saves protect in many more situations, including almost all the situations that SR would help. The number of spells without saves but with SR could be counted on your fingers, or at least your fingers and toes. The number of monsters with supernatural or psionic attacks is vastly larger than the number of such spells. In addition, saves help against mundane attacks, such as poison and falling into pits. How is SR more potent? Maybe extremly high levels of SR seems more potent, but get a cleric with good stats and a cloak of resistance and see how much he fears spell casters, or gaze attacks, or psionics, or supernatural charm effects ect ect. (I would have used monk as my example, but you'd point out they get SR.)

That's not how logic works in this case, though. The actual logic is that since the factors are so different, you can't equate them, because they all are balanced against each other on their own scale and are too variable. You can't equate variable variables across variable sections of a variable system. That is impossible!

How different are they? They go up in measurable rates, they provide similiar benifits... I mean, they look to me to be the same stuff, only the feats you get from experience (reward one) and the magic you get from the monies. (reward two). Since the amount of money and exp for each fight is directly controled by the DM, and they both have suggested values, it looks to me like they are one and the same. As equating variable variables (what variables aren't variable?) across variable sections (variable sections? we got 2, magic and feats) of a variable system (i'll give you this, you can pick different feats or magic) being impossilbe? We only have two variables here.. selection of magic items and feats. If the magic items and the feats are roughly equal in thier own sets, and thier sets respond to a relation that one could easily define (money per feat, for example), how can we not compare the two?

For me, that's one way to put EMPHASIS on things.

ok... what happened to bold or italics?

Eldorian Antar

 

[Eldorian]

BTW, I think perhaps we should make a new continuation thread, and perhaps split the CR hashing and the Immortals handbok discussion, so people that aren't interested in the IH (the fools) can read and comment on the way CR aught to be handled.

Good idea? Basically, 11 pages is too long annoying to work with.


Eldorian Antar

P.S. Gonna make the threads.

Edit.

Immortal Handbook
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=44070

double edit, deleted the other thread at UK's request

 

[Upper_Krust]

I'll get this out of the way first...

Hi Eldorian mate!

BTW, I think perhaps we should make a new continuation thread, and perhaps split the CR hashing and the Immortals handbok discussion, so people that aren't interested in the IH (the fools) can read and comment on the way CR aught to be handled.

Good idea? Basically, 11 pages is too long annoying to work with.

Well I would have prefered you ask me first, splitting the thread into two might confuse people and unnecessarily hog more of the House Rules forum than I would wish. Also what if people make comments regarding both in the same post. I would prefer it if you asked the moderators to delete the redundant secondary new thread:

"CR and Item pricing, continuation from the IH thread."

...but I suppose the intentions were honourable. Just don't do it again.

 

[Anubis]

Sure you can playtest the existance of an item such as the cloak of resistance, but how in the world do you playtest the prices, espceially since I advocate a simple doubling in price? The in game effects boil down to a 5% difference, that would be astronomically hard to test.

Not really. I've done it effortlessly.

That's game balance. The more powerful an ability is, the more it costs to get it, obviously. Thats why we don't give vorpal weapons to children... So they don't rise up and kill the parents (ie, low levels killing your big bad monsters)

You seem to equate "necessary" and "powerful". They are two very different things. Necessary is "have it or you'll probably die" while powerful is "if i have it you're dead".

Magical offencive items? Where? Oh, you mean ability scores. Guess what, they aren't just for magical offence. They do many other things, including magical defence (wisdom) skills(Int), and.. err.. what does Cha do again? oh yah. not much unless you have a nifty class =P. Plus, I'm reading my DMG here.. at it says

A +2 cloak of charsima costs 4k, which adds 1 to save DCs.
A +1 cloak of resistance costs 1k, which adds 1 to saves.

A +4 cloak of charisma costs 16k, which adds 2 to save DCs.
A +2 cloak of resistance costs 4k, which adds 2 to saves.

A +6 cloak of charisma costs 36k, which adds 3 to save DCs.
A +3 cloak of resistance costs 9k, which adds 3 to saves.

hmm.. I don't know if I've got the math right (ok, I do) it looks to me like the item that increases save DCs costs 4 times as much as the protection, not twice as you claimed. And there are 5 levels of protection, while the offence sports only 3.

I must thank you for proving my point here. The ability scores do much more than simply raise the spell DCs, and thus cost more. If you created an item that simply raised spell DCs, which would be a bad thing because then the items totally cancel each other out, but if you were to make such an item, it would cost the same as the Cloak of Resistance as opposed to four times the Cloak of Resistance.

Remember, balance is tilted toward defense, not offense. It should be harder to increase offense and much easier to increase defense. That adds to the longevity of the game.

Not all hope is lost...

Are we playing the same game?!?! SR protects against spells. Spells only. Saves protect in many more situations, including almost all the situations that SR would help. The number of spells without saves but with SR could be counted on your fingers, or at least your fingers and toes. The number of monsters with supernatural or psionic attacks is vastly larger than the number of such spells. In addition, saves help against mundane attacks, such as poison and falling into pits. How is SR more potent? Maybe extremly high levels of SR seems more potent, but get a cleric with good stats and a cloak of resistance and see how much he fears spell casters, or gaze attacks, or psionics, or supernatural charm effects ect ect. (I would have used monk as my example, but you'd point out they get SR.)

Um, I guess not. SR negates all spells and spell-like abilities. Saves usually reduce the effect by half, although there are exceptions for the especially powerful things.

How different are they? They go up in measurable rates, they provide similiar benifits... I mean, they look to me to be the same stuff, only the feats you get from experience (reward one) and the magic you get from the monies. (reward two). Since the amount of money and exp for each fight is directly controled by the DM, and they both have suggested values, it looks to me like they are one and the same. As equating variable variables (what variables aren't variable?) across variable sections (variable sections? we got 2, magic and feats) of a variable system (i'll give you this, you can pick different feats or magic) being impossilbe? We only have two variables here.. selection of magic items and feats. If the magic items and the feats are roughly equal in thier own sets, and thier sets respond to a relation that one could easily define (money per feat, for example), how can we not compare the two?

I don't see how you COULD compare the two. You once again left out half the facts. Yes, they go up in measurable rates . . . BUT those rates are different across the board. The fact that you get one from experience and the other from money only proves my point. As for the variables, there are far more than two involved. There are classes, skills, feats, and magical items. Those are just the main ones. The fact that they are all so different makes equating any of them outside their own groupings impossible. Yes, they are roughly equal within their own groupings . . . BUT their groupings do not actually relate as you claim, as they are all too different!

ok... what happened to bold or italics?

Eldorian Antar

The code on these boards is a pain in the rear, that's what. I would much rather have HTML allowed.

 

[-Eä-]

Greetings all!


Well... I thought it would be wise to give my stance on the saves issue.


1. There are far more ways to increase the DC of a spell than to increase the saves. Granted: You could get Divine Grace and multiclass like hell, but compared to spell power, ability bonuses (not only from items, but also temporary bonuses and the inherent bonuses), the means through which you may get bonuses to your saving throws are limited.

Take for instance the Red Wizard: the spell DC will surely outrank the saving throw bonuses, given a few levels. Even the more generic Archmage with its "mere" +6 spell power easily throws away most resistance.

I know taking prestige classes into the equation may be confusing by increasing the number of variables, but as a wizard, I would certainly look for ways to increase the DC to my saving throws. Maybe not as drastically as with the Red Wizard, but certainly enough to even make the best save a character has peanuts without the help of either class abilities or magic items.


2. I must say I have had the same experience as Anubis when it comes to game experience: characters often rely on that cloak to survive. Not that this is an argument for having a low cost, but increasing the cost by a factor of three will certainly raise the mortality rate in a lot of campaigns. In one of the two capaings in which I am playing, the mortality rate is quite high as it is, and it would increase by a factor of 2.3 by increasing the cost of the cloak of resistance by a factor of 3. If this is a measure of anything, perhaps the efficiency of save or die or equivalent spells.


3. Spell Resistance is FAR superior to saving throw when it comes to dealing with spells. Take the examples of Enervation, Harm, the two most lethal examples I can come up with: Saves won't mean anything, SR would stop it.
Additionally, SR blocks many spells that don't have save, while vice a versa this is not true. Enervation is on that basis one of the most powerful spells in the PHB in my opinion.
Eldorian's example of a cleric withstanding most things with only saves and spells is flawed, and this is mainly because the cleric has access to the spell "Spell Resistance" (which is INSANELY powerful for its level combined with Prayer Beads: Karma.)


4. I think it's the feats that are not balanced, not the item. I think Endurance, Lightning Reflexes and Iron Will need to be fixed by increasing the bonus they grant. Very few characters will take these feats in my experience and I agree that one reason for not to take them is the cost of the cloak of resistance, but I firmly believe that fixing the feats is the way to go in this issue.



Well... I would (and will) go for changing the feats in this particular case and I guess we will have one group that will use this procedure and another one that changes the item. Perhaps it's "playing style"-issue?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Greetings all!

Hi Eä mate!

...by the way Eldorian, see the trouble a non moderated thread closure instigates! People are still replying in here!

Well... I thought it would be wise to give my stance on the saves issue.

Sure, fire away mate!

1. There are far more ways to increase the DC of a spell than to increase the saves. Granted: You could get Divine Grace and multiclass like hell, but compared to spell power, ability bonuses (not only from items, but also temporary bonuses and the inherent bonuses), the means through which you may get bonuses to your saving throws are limited.

I would have said it was even if not actually favouring the saving throws!?

Ability bonuses work both ways of course.

Take for instance the Red Wizard: the spell DC will surely outrank the saving throw bonuses, given a few levels. Even the more generic Archmage with its "mere" +6 spell power easily throws away most resistance.

I know taking prestige classes into the equation may be confusing by increasing the number of variables, but as a wizard, I would certainly look for ways to increase the DC to my saving throws. Maybe not as drastically as with the Red Wizard, but certainly enough to even make the best save a character has peanuts without the help of either class abilities or magic items.

Indeed, prestige classes are not really grounds for an overall balance factor.

2. I must say I have had the same experience as Anubis when it comes to game experience: characters often rely on that cloak to survive. Not that this is an argument for having a low cost, but increasing the cost by a factor of three will certainly raise the mortality rate in a lot of campaigns. In one of the two capaings in which I am playing, the mortality rate is quite high as it is, and it would increase by a factor of 2.3 by increasing the cost of the cloak of resistance by a factor of 3. If this is a measure of anything, perhaps the efficiency of save or die or equivalent spells.

So you would advocate changing the feats, rather than the items, okay.

3. Spell Resistance is FAR superior to saving throw when it comes to dealing with spells. Take the examples of Enervation, Harm, the two most lethal examples I can come up with: Saves won't mean anything, SR would stop it.

Well harm is broken and enervation typically won't kill you.

Surely spell resistance is simply a secondary saving throw of sorts. No better or worse than each other.

Additionally, SR blocks many spells that don't have save, while vice a versa this is not true. Enervation is on that basis one of the most powerful spells in the PHB in my opinion.

Yes, I would say its pretty powerful.

4. I think it's the feats that are not balanced, not the item. I think Endurance, Lightning Reflexes and Iron Will need to be fixed by increasing the bonus they grant. Very few characters will take these feats in my experience and I agree that one reason for not to take them is the cost of the cloak of resistance, but I firmly believe that fixing the feats is the way to go in this issue.

Well as I have mentioned its either one or the other.

Well... I would (and will) go for changing the feats in this particular case and I guess we will have one group that will use this procedure and another one that changes the item. Perhaps it's "playing style"-issue?

Possibly. Either/or probably works. I dunno, I'll have a think about which to finally adopt.

 

[Anubis]

I advocate bumping the feats up to +4 and keeping the Cloak of Resistance the same.

 

[Anubis]

ALERT!

UK, WE HAVE SEVERELY UNDERESTIMATED THE POWER OF NPC CLASSES!

I just played out a combat in my campaign with six Level 20 Human Adepts with ability scores 10/10/10/10/18/10 again a Vashar Wizard12 (11/15/13/20/15/11), a Vashar/Vampire Fighter7 (18/22/--/17/16/16), a Half-Dragon (Black)/Vashar Rogue9 (22/21/16/18/10/14), and a Half-Human/Half-Vashar Bard 12 (14/16/12/16/9/20) . . . The adepts even had only 5000 gp woth of wealth here, and the PCs are some of the smartest gamers around and had full wealth plus some, and according to the numbers we've come up with, this should have been a very easy battle for them. That is not the case . . . THEY WERE PULVERIZED TOTALLY!

I am officially changing my stance on the NPC classes to just below the WotC rating but far above the ratings given here. That is all.