Immortals Handbook - Epic Bestiary (Epic Monster Discussion)

[WarDragon]

I don't see how wanting to be better able to survive the vast majority of afflictions, spells, and supernatural attacks that you know, without a doubt, WILL be thrown at you throughout your career is any way metagaming. Seems like something any character with a gram of sense (or allies with a gram of sense) would do, regardless of how well it fit their theme.

Oh, and Epic characters with the ELH wealth system don't wear Cloaks of Resistance. They wear custom items that give a +5 each of competence, circumstance, insight, luck, morale, and sacred/profane bonus to saves. At least, they do if they want to be able to make the kind of saves that will be thrown at them on a regular basis by creatures of CR above their level-5 or so. Because that's a +30 bonus, for less than a +6 or +7 of a straight resistance would cost you. And a resistance bonus itself is easy to get with spells, so you're stupid to get an item that grants it.

 

[Pssthpok]

Howdy there!

Hey hey!

...and do we design with Cloaks of Resistance as integral into PC make-up's?

Technically, yes. Wealth is accounted for in ECL, and that allows for cloaks of resistance. However you want to look at it, to color it, to make your reasoning hold water is up to you, but R&D at WotC and message board data tends to agree that resistance bonuses are one of the Big Six items that everyone seems to get as their character goes up in level. So if you design around aggressive players then yes, you do design with resistance bonuses in mind.

I am sure safety in numbers helps them sleep at night.

I'll leave that one alone; suffice to say that abstinence isn't tantamount to disparity.

 

[WarDragon]

Ignore this post. Why is there no option to delete?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey dante dude!

Hey Krusty...if you love vampires, you'll love this. It has a plethora of ideas for vampires.

I don't love Vampires as much as some people.

Id give you my copy, but as it's a PDF...yeah...well you get the idea...not possible. LOL!!!

I wouldn't take a pirated copy even if you did offer it.

The Immortal: Vampires
By Ben Mowbray
www.ukg-publishing.co.uk | www.ultramyth.com

Thanks for the links!

I am somewhat reticent of checking out other peoples ideas on vampires in case they flavour my own.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey WarDragon mate!

I don't see how wanting to be better able to survive the vast majority of afflictions, spells, and supernatural attacks that you know, without a doubt, WILL be thrown at you throughout your career is any way metagaming. Seems like something any character with a gram of sense (or allies with a gram of sense) would do, regardless of how well it fit their theme.

The metagaming part is that you are not given the choice because your saves will be so far behind (without such an item) it will be ridiculous.

Oh, and Epic characters with the ELH wealth system don't wear Cloaks of Resistance. They wear custom items that give a +5 each of competence, circumstance, insight, luck, morale, and sacred/profane bonus to saves. At least, they do if they want to be able to make the kind of saves that will be thrown at them on a regular basis by creatures of CR above their level-5 or so. Because that's a +30 bonus, for less than a +6 or +7 of a straight resistance would cost you. And a resistance bonus itself is easy to get with spells, so you're stupid to get an item that grants it.

+5 Competence to saves = 50,000

Stacking

+5 Circumstance = 75-100,000
+5 Insight = 75-100,000
+5 Luck = 75-100,000
+5 Morale = 75-100,000
+5 Sacred/Profane = 75-100,000

That means (at a bare minimum) anything over a +15 bonus is an epic item....technically you could have +5 first, +3 all the rest* for under 200,001 gp. So that would be +20.

*Assuming it was a +50% modifier for stacking in a similar slot - which I doubt.

What would be possible is a Cloak of Epic Resistance (at almost half your ECL) plus all six of the above rated at +5.

At 40th-level you could possess a Cloak which boosted saves by about +46 (+16 resistance and +5 on all the others).

 

[Pssthpok]

+5 Competence to saves = 50,000

Stacking

+5 Circumstance = 75-100,000
+5 Insight = 75-100,000
+5 Luck = 75-100,000
+5 Morale = 75-100,000
+5 Sacred/Profane = 75-100,000

That means (at a bare minimum) anything over a +15 bonus is an epic item....technically you could have +5 first, +3 all the rest* for under 200,001 gp. So that would be +20.

*Assuming it was a +50% modifier for stacking in a similar slot - which I doubt.

What would be possible is a Cloak of Epic Resistance (at almost half your ECL) plus all six of the above rated at +5.

At 40th-level you could possess a Cloak which boosted saves by about +46 (+16 resistance and +5 on all the others).

See, now that's metagaming/munching. That's using every possible facet of the rules to exploit the saving throw system even though you just don't need it. Random Treasure over the levels and ally-made items should hold down the fort for most PCs, but just because they have the item doesn't make them metagamers, nor does it imply that the saving throw DC formula for monsters is broken. I'd rather tug-o'-war with saves and DCs than auto-pass/fail using a 20+ system. The former is a genuine way of giving variability across the board, showing off stronger equipment or high-end HD monster abilities; the latter means that pretty much no matter what or how your character has chosen to equip and defend themselves, they'll be saving as well as the next bloke. Talk about mundane.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey hey!

Hey Pssthpok dude!

Technically, yes. Wealth is accounted for in ECL, and that allows for cloaks of resistance. However you want to look at it, to color it, to make your reasoning hold water is up to you, but R&D at WotC and message board data tends to agree that resistance bonuses are one of the Big Six items that everyone seems to get as their character goes up in level. So if you design around aggressive players then yes, you do design with resistance bonuses in mind.

I agree with that, and it was interesting reading over that article again.

Magic weapon
Magic armor & shield
Ring of protection
Cloak of resistance
Amulet of natural armor
Ability-score boosters

I am not denying their functionality, but rather their necessity. Its amazing that, when you think about it, of the above, the Cloak of Resistance is possibly the most important item.

But theres no disguising that the 3rd, 4th, 5th (and arguably the 6th) items on the list are flavourless Diablo-esque number crunchers.

However, if WarDragon has shown us anything its that stacking items should perhaps be a bit more expensive than it currently is.

I'll leave that one alone; suffice to say that abstinence isn't tantamount to disparity.

If it makes you feel better getting it off your chest then no harm done I suppose.

 

[Axolotl]

But theres no disguising that the 3rd, 4th, 5th (and arguably the 6th) items on the list are flavourless Diablo-esque number crunchers.

Please could you explain thatcomment because it really dosen't make much sense.

 

[dante58701]

I am somewhat reticent of checking out other peoples ideas on vampires in case they flavour my own.

That's why you draw upon their ideas for inspiration and give things a new twist. While there is something wrong with replicating other peoples work verbatim, theres certainly nothing wrong with being inspired.

I like a lot of their ideas, but the mechanics they use are a bit off at times. Not to mention not nearly as simplified as they could be.

Ive always liked the idea of Vampire Aging tables, but your idea of Templates that stack on to existing undead is much easier. Case in point being the Akalich.

All in all they currently have the best Vampire product out there, I'd like to see what Krusty can do with the whole epic vampire thing.

 

[WarDragon]

It's not mundane, and it's not underpriced, it's necessary. Don't believe me? Check the ELH. A non-minmaxed character, with a cloak of resistance that doesn't take up a huge portion of his wealth, is laughably far behind the save DCs of anything at his own CR. Calling it metagaming (which it's not, any character with a brain in his head will spend money and time on the most efficient methods of survival) doesn't change this fact.

EDIT: Oh, and your pricing for the uber-save item above is wrong. The x10 Epic pricing mod doesn't kick in until you have any individual bonus in Epic territory; merely having a total price over 200,000 doesn't do it (that would be silly, then there would be no possible item with a price between 200,000 and 2,000,010). Don't believe me? Look at Stormbrand.