Immortals Handbook - Epic Bestiary (Epic Monster Discussion)

[Pssthpok]

"Options" not withstanding, magic weapons are not only essential, they are indispensable. But no one is suggesting we drop ACs... because one has the option of having various enchantments on a weapon rather than straight bonuses? That's not even in the same sport as this discussion, let alone the same ballpark.

If you want to compare weapons to CoRs, you have to go with the straight numeric advantages. Everyone needs enchantment modifiers on weapons eventually (to hit and keep up in damage output); eventually everyone needs resistance modifiers to saves (to pass the DCs).

So, enchantment modifiers on weapons are inevitable, too, but again: you're not complaining about that... supposedly because "magic weapons" appear in fantasy mediums. Just because there aren't different options for a resistance bonus doesn't make their function any more mundane that the function of an enchantment modifier to a weapon; the net results are pretty much identical: higher rolls. Except the latter is okay in your book and the former not, and this judgment is based primarily on the illusion that one is forced upon the PC more than the other, when the truth is that both are roughly equal in necessity.

I'll just go ahead and say that we'll have to agree to disagree on the subject. I think a 1-or-20 situation is more likely the higher you go, but I wouldn't use a rule that ensured it.

 

[dante58701]

Hiya mate!



Theres a difference between inspiration and stealing, I try to draw the line at using other RPG products as inspiration.

In a similar way, if I was writing a comic, I wouldn't use ideas from other comics (at least not consciously).

So I'll use movies, anime, comics, mythology, fantasy literature, video games and other sources to inspire my RPG creations, but not other RPGs if I can help it.



I already have more undead planned than I have time to actually 'do them'!

Fair enough, I can definitely see you point on that.

One remaining question though is regarding Age Categories and Salient Abilities. Will they be included for undead? Vampires in particular have this benefit in most literature.

Or do you have another idea for that in mind?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

"Options" not withstanding, magic weapons are not only essential, they are indispensable.

Are they indispensible for monks, wizards and sorcerers?

But no one is suggesting we drop ACs... because one has the option of having various enchantments on a weapon rather than straight bonuses? That's not even in the same sport as this discussion, let alone the same ballpark.

Of course no one is suggesting it because a difference in AC (as opposed to DC) is not that critical.

If you want to compare weapons to CoRs, you have to go with the straight numeric advantages. Everyone needs enchantment modifiers on weapons eventually (to hit and keep up in damage output); eventually everyone needs resistance modifiers to saves (to pass the DCs).

But there exists that flexibility with weapons (and armour) that is not present in CoRs.

So, enchantment modifiers on weapons are inevitable,

Its easy to confuse enchantment with enhancement isn't it.

too, but again: you're not complaining about that... supposedly because "magic weapons" appear in fantasy mediums.

Can you have 'fantasy' (or more specifically sword & sorcery) without the option of magic weapons...I don't think so.

The same cannot be said of Cloaks of Resistance.

Just because there aren't different options for a resistance bonus doesn't make their function any more mundane that the function of an enchantment modifier to a weapon; the net results are pretty much identical: higher rolls. Except the latter is okay in your book and the former not, and this judgment is based primarily on the illusion that one is forced upon the PC more than the other, when the truth is that both are roughly equal in necessity.

I disagree. Of course a purely numerical function is more mundane.

I'll just go ahead and say that we'll have to agree to disagree on the subject.

Okay.

I think a 1-or-20 situation is more likely the higher you go, but I wouldn't use a rule that ensured it.

I just say be careful with epic DCs.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi dante mate!

Fair enough, I can definitely see you point on that.

One remaining question though is regarding Age Categories and Salient Abilities. Will they be included for undead? Vampires in particular have this benefit in most literature.

Or do you have another idea for that in mind?

I don't have plans for undead age categories beyond the fact that my more powerful undead are generally older.

e.g. A lich may be hundreds of years old, a demi-lich thousands of years old and an Akalich tens of thousands etc.

You could probably extarpolate the in-betweens easily enough I guess though.

 

[WarDragon]

I disagree. Of course a purely numerical function is more mundane.

Which is not necessarily a bad thing. Looked at properly, it actually enhances the believability of the game. How's that, you ask?

Imagine, if you will, that you are an adventurer. Not a player controlling a fictional adventurer, but a real, flesh and blood denizen of the D&D cosmology, and you are putting your one and only life on the line every time you go into battle. Assume it's not an OotS-like campaign setting, so you have no conception of numbers like BAB and save DCs. I want you to look me in the (virtual eye) and tell me that if there exist items which can improve your ability to survive against all sorts of effects by making you more resistant to them, or giving you a protective forcefield, or just hardening your skin, you would not acquire and use such items at every opportunity, regardless of how "mundane" or "boring" they might be. If you can honestly tell me that, Krusty, then you've got a leg to stand on with this pet peeve of yours.

 

[DeedlitElf]

Here's a random question:

Which of the super-powerful beings is more powerful, the 32 million CR dude or that Octad guy?

 

[Pssthpok]

Hiya mate!

Hey hey, UK.

Are they indispensible for monks, wizards and sorcerers?

Monks, moreso than the rest; but in the end if you want to hit and deal damage, you're goign to need better numbers.

Of course no one is suggesting it because a difference in AC (as opposed to DC) is not that critical.

Until you're dealing with Uncanny Power Attack and DevCrit.

But there exists that flexibility with weapons (and armour) that is not present in CoRs.

Only when you diverge and start talking about things like keen and fortification. One a numbers-to-numbers argument, both items are equally important in the game. I suppose if you could have things like "Invulnerability (lesser, moderate, and greater)" that soaked up resistance bonuses the way Fortification soaks up armor enhancement bonuses, then it would be a different story?

Its easy to confuse enchantment with enhancement isn't it.

Yeah; why can't it just be "magic bonus"?

Can you have 'fantasy' (or more specifically sword & sorcery) without the option of magic weapons...I don't think so.

The same cannot be said of Cloaks of Resistance.

Well, saying that because CoRs don't appeal to one specific genre of fantasy isn't enough to get them the axe, or at least it's not enough to say that save DCs need to be changed so that CoRs stop being so popular. D&D is it's own style of fantasy; we're not necessarily trying to play Game of Thrones or Conan when we sit down with our dice; if you want to do that you buy the campaign setting.

I disagree. Of course a purely numerical function is more mundane.

CoRs being mundane isn't enough to convict save DCs of being too high. Ability boost items are mundane, too. No one is suggesting that the reason for people wanting such boosts should be revised.

Okay.

I just say be careful with epic DCs.

I do my best; our game just hit the mid 30s last weekend and managed to pull together enough worship to reach Hero-deity.

 

[Axolotl]

Here's a random question:

Which of the super-powerful beings is more powerful, the 32 million CR dude or that Octad guy?

It'll be the CR 32000000 guy (whoever he is). Though this is more powerful.

On another topic, could there be Supernal level abominations? If so what power levels would they be?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy!

Which is not necessarily a bad thing. Looked at properly, it actually enhances the believability of the game. How's that, you ask?

Imagine, if you will, that you are an adventurer. Not a player controlling a fictional adventurer, but a real, flesh and blood denizen of the D&D cosmology, and you are putting your one and only life on the line every time you go into battle. Assume it's not an OotS-like campaign setting, so you have no conception of numbers like BAB and save DCs. I want you to look me in the (virtual eye) and tell me that if there exist items which can improve your ability to survive against all sorts of effects by making you more resistant to them, or giving you a protective forcefield, or just hardening your skin, you would not acquire and use such items at every opportunity, regardless of how "mundane" or "boring" they might be. If you can honestly tell me that, Krusty, then you've got a leg to stand on with this pet peeve of yours.

I believe thats called 'leading the witness'.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey DeadlitElf!

Here's a random question:

Which of the super-powerful beings is more powerful, the 32 million CR dude or that Octad guy?

A complicated answer that would first need me to see the CR 32 million guy.

The Octad has a potential CR in the billions if I let the brakes off the Transcendental and Omnific abilities.