Immortals Handbook - Epic Bestiary (Epic Monster Discussion)

[paradox42]

Thats because they have a precedent in fantasy/myth,

Irrelevant to me, even if it is relevant to somebody else. I'm not interested in what previous myths say on this subject, the game I and my players play is about making up our own myths. We don't care what the Ancient Greeks or the Finns of the Eddas age have to say on these matters, we're not playing in that world. We're also not playing on Earth, or even an alternate-history version of it. Earth myths have as much relevance to our characters as diamonds do to egg salad.

...they are optional dependant on class,

Players may make the choice of whether or not to acquire one based on class, but those without do get left behind. Thus it devolves into essentially the same situation as Cloaks of Resistance. And I can tell you now that of those in my Epic game, several characters do not have Cloaks of Resistance- they went with other items in those slots (a Cloak can be worn in either of two slots, of course). When it comes time to make saves, they do sometimes regret that choice, but it was theirs to make. And yes, the powergamers of the party do have Cloaks of Resistance (along with other save-boosting items), but then again both of them also have highly magical weapons and armor- even though one of them is the party Sorceress. Admittedly she normally only uses a shield, but she does use one.

...they have a variety of abilities - the choice of which is tactical, they have a number of different materials.

An issue easily solved by creating abilities to do the same with Cloaks of Resistance. I like that idea, myself- it's the best of both worlds!

I feel we are going round in circles with this particular discussion.

Instead of forcing Cloaks of Resistance upon players, they could easily make natural save progressions higher - perhaps 2:3 levels = poor and 1 per level = good. That way you essentially get rid of this item.

Except that you don't, because as others have pointed out- in a world where magic works, somebody is going to arrive at a means of crafting an item to provide resistance to various effects which- translated into game terms as all things from this other world must be for we Earthlings to deal with them- end up looking very much like Cloaks of Resistance. Changing the underlying mechanics of saving throws by making the bonuses higher at each level does nothing to alter the fact that it just plain makes sense, for people who regularly get into dangerous situations, to want a magic item that helps them avoid or resist danger- even if only a little bit.

Clearly, the world you envision games taking place in doesn't have people who think along these lines, and in your world Cloaks of Resistance make no sense. That's fine; run your world that way if that's what you like. Many of the rest of us, though, see a world without Cloaks as being the one which makes no sense. We prefer to stick to the standard D&D convention of having magic items (be they Cloaks or something else) which provide bonuses to saving throws.

 

[paradox42]

First of the New Dragon Types

The first of the super-dragons that I was toying with as ideas, that I decided to actually turn into a concrete monster (so to speak), is the one I called a "Brane Dragon" in the last post I made that mentioned them (that was post 583 in this thread; post 563 is where I first mentioned the ideas).

I have worked out statistics for the beast, and after spending 4 hours or so typing them up, here they are! So, fellow Immortals Handbook aficionados, I give you the

Firmament Dragon
Brane Dragon, Cosmic Lamprey

Macro-Tiny Dragon (Extraplanar)
Environment: Any (usually deep space)
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: Wyrmling ?; Very Young ?; Young ?; Juvenile ?; Young Adult ?;
Adult ?; Mature Adult ?; Old ?; Very Old ?; Ancient ?; Wyrm ?; Great Wyrm ?
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always Neutral
Advancement: Wyrmling 609-631 HD (Macro-Tiny); Very Young 633-655 HD (Macro-Tiny); Young 657-679 HD (Macro-Tiny); Juvenile 681-703 HD (Macro-Tiny); Young Adult 705-727 HD (Macro-Tiny); Adult 729-751 HD (Macro-Tiny); Mature Adult 753-775 HD (Macro-Tiny); Old 777-799 HD (Macro-Tiny); Very Old 801-823 HD (Macro-Tiny); Ancient 825-847 HD (Macro-Tiny); Wyrm 849-871 HD (Macro-Tiny); Great Wyrm 873-895 HD (Macro-Tiny); Great-Great Wyrm 897-919 HD (Macro-Tiny)
Level Adjustment: Wyrmling ?; Very Young ?; Young ?; Juvenile ?; Young Adult ?; Adult ?; Mature Adult ?; Old ?; Very Old ?; Ancient ?; Wyrm ?; Great Wyrm ?

The space before you fills with a presence, at once majestic and terrible. It is only barely visible, as a distortion of the space it occupies into a serpentine, even draconic shape- but you cannot be certain whether the space is distorting or whether there is a real creature there that is simply camouflaged so exactly like the vista behind it. Then it unfurls six vast wings, each revealing an impossible vista like a negative of the proper sky, brilliant white with specks of darkness spread within- and opens an enormous maw to reveal yet a third vista within some space that should not be there- and you realize abruptly in a mad moment that your space is the distortion, and this creature the reality.

<table border="1" style="font-size:small" title="Firmament Dragons By Age">
    <tr>
    	<th align="left" colspan="11">Firmament Dragons By Age</th>
    </tr>
    <tr>
        <th align="left" valign="bottom">Age</th>
        <th valign="bottom">Size</th>
        <th align="left" valign="bottom">Hit Dice (hit points)</th>
        <th align="left" valign="bottom">AC</th>
        <th valign="bottom">Base Attack/Grapple</th>
        <th valign="bottom">Attack</th>
        <th valign="bottom">Fort Save</th>
        <th valign="bottom">Ref Save</th>
        <th valign="bottom">Will Save</th>
        <th align="left" valign="bottom">Breath Weapon</th>
        <th valign="bottom">Mind Warp DC</th>
    </tr>
    <tr>
        <td valign="top">Wyrmling</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">Ma-T</td>
        <td valign="top">608d1000+10,336 (618,336 hp)</td>
        <td valign="top">769 (-128 size, +152 deflection, +64 divine, +64 insight, +607 natural)</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+608/<br>+809</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+649</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+451</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+434</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+586</td>
        <td valign="top"><i>Gravity:</i>1d6% <i>Aging:</i>38 years <i>Karma:</i>152d1000 XP <i>Siphon:</i>152d100 QP</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">594</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
        <td valign="top">Very Young</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">Ma-T</td>
        <td valign="top">632d1000+14,536 (646,536 hp)</td>
        <td valign="top">831 (-128 size, +158 deflection, +80 divine, +80 insight, +631 natural)</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+632/<br>+869</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+709</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+501</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+478</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+634</td>
        <td valign="top"><i>Gravity:</i>2d6% <i>Aging:</i>39.5 years <i>Karma:</i>158d1000 XP <i>Siphon:</i>158d100 QP</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">644</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
        <td valign="top">Young</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">Ma-T</td>
        <td valign="top">656d1000+19,024 (675,024 hp)</td>
        <td valign="top">893 (-128 size, +164 deflection, +96 divine, +96 insight, +655 natural)</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+656/<br>+929</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+769</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+551</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+522</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+682</td>
        <td valign="top"><i>Gravity:</i>3d6% <i>Aging:</i>41 years <i>Karma:</i>164d1000 XP <i>Siphon:</i>164d100 QP</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">694</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
        <td valign="top">Juvenile</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">Ma-T</td>
        <td valign="top">680d1000+23,800 (703,800 hp)</td>
        <td valign="top">955 (-128 size, +170 deflection, +112 divine, +112 insight, +679 natural)</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+680/<br>+989</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+829</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+601</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+566</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+730</td>
        <td valign="top"><i>Gravity:</i>4d6% <i>Aging:</i>42.5 years <i>Karma:</i>170d1000 XP <i>Siphon:</i>170d100 QP</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">744</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
        <td valign="top">Young Adult</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">Ma-T</td>
        <td valign="top">704d1000+28,864 (732,864 hp)</td>
        <td valign="top">1017 (-128 size, +176 deflection, +128 divine, +128 insight, +703 natural)</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+704/<br>+1049</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+889</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+651</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+610</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+778</td>
        <td valign="top"><i>Gravity:</i>5d6% <i>Aging:</i>44 years <i>Karma:</i>176d1000 XP <i>Siphon:</i>176d100 QP</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">794</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
        <td valign="top">Adult</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">Ma-T</td>
        <td valign="top">728d1000+34,216 (762,216 hp)</td>
        <td valign="top">1079 (-128 size, +182 deflection, +144 divine, +144 insight, +727 natural)</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+728/<br>+1109</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+949</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+701</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+654</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+826</td>
        <td valign="top"><i>Gravity:</i>6d6% <i>Aging:</i>45.5 years <i>Karma:</i>182d1000 XP <i>Siphon:</i>182d100 QP</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">844</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
        <td valign="top">Mature Adult</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">Ma-T</td>
        <td valign="top">752d1000+39,856 (791,856 hp)</td>
        <td valign="top">1141 (-128 size, +188 deflection, +160 divine, +160 insight, +751 natural)</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+752/<br>+1169</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+1009</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+751</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+698</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+874</td>
        <td valign="top"><i>Gravity:</i>7d6% <i>Aging:</i>47 years <i>Karma:</i>188d1000 XP <i>Siphon:</i>188d100 QP</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">894</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
        <td valign="top">Old</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">Ma-T</td>
        <td valign="top">776d1000+45,784 (821,784 hp)</td>
        <td valign="top">1203 (-128 size, +194 deflection, +176 divine, +176 insight, +775 natural)</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+776/<br>+1229</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+1069</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+801</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+742</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+922</td>
        <td valign="top"><i>Gravity:</i>8d6% <i>Aging:</i>48.5 years <i>Karma:</i>194d1000 XP <i>Siphon:</i>194d100 QP</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">944</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
        <td valign="top">Very Old</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">Ma-T</td>
        <td valign="top">800d1000+52,000 (852,000 hp)</td>
        <td valign="top">1265 (-128 size, +200 deflection, +192 divine, +192 insight, +799 natural)</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+800/<br>+1289</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+1129</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+851</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+786</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+970</td>
        <td valign="top"><i>Gravity:</i>9d6% <i>Aging:</i>50 years <i>Karma:</i>200d1000 XP <i>Siphon:</i>200d100 QP</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">994</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
        <td valign="top">Ancient</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">Ma-T</td>
        <td valign="top">824d1000+58,504 (882,504 hp)</td>
        <td valign="top">1327 (-128 size, +206 deflection, +208 divine, +208 insight, +823 natural)</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+824/<br>+1349</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+1189</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+901</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+830</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+1018</td>
        <td valign="top"><i>Gravity:</i>10d6% <i>Aging:</i>51.5 years <i>Karma:</i>206d1000 XP <i>Siphon:</i>206d100 QP</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">1044</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
        <td valign="top">Wyrm</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">Ma-T</td>
        <td valign="top">848d1000+65,296 (913,296 hp)</td>
        <td valign="top">1389 (-128 size, +212 deflection, +224 divine, +224 insight, +847 natural)</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+848/<br>+1409</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+1249</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+951</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+874</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+1066</td>
        <td valign="top"><i>Gravity:</i>11d6% <i>Aging:</i>53 years <i>Karma:</i>212d1000 XP <i>Siphon:</i>212d100 QP</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">1094</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
        <td valign="top">Great Wyrm</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">Ma-T</td>
        <td valign="top">872d1000+72,376 (944,376 hp)</td>
        <td valign="top">1451 (-128 size, +218 deflection, +240 divine, +240 insight, +871 natural)</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+872/<br>+1469</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+1309</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+1001</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+918</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">+1114</td>
        <td valign="top"><i>Gravity:</i>12d6% <i>Aging:</i>54.5 years <i>Karma:</i>218d1000 XP <i>Siphon:</i>218d100 QP</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">1144</td>
    </tr>
</table>
<p>
<table border="1" style="font-size:small" title="Firmament Dragon Abilities By Age">
    <tr>
    	<th align="left" colspan="10">Firmament Dragon Abilities By Age</th>
    </tr>
    <tr>
        <th align="left" valign="bottom">Age</th>
        <th align="left" valign="bottom">Speed</th>
        <th valign="bottom">STR</th>
        <th valign="bottom">DEX</th>
        <th valign="bottom">CON</th>
        <th valign="bottom">INT</th>
        <th valign="bottom">WIS</th>
        <th valign="bottom">CHA</th>
        <th align="left" valign="bottom">Special Abilities</th>
        <th valign="bottom">Damage Reduction</th>
        <th valign="bottom">Caster Level</th>
        <th valign="bottom">SR</th>
    </tr>
    <tr>
        <td valign="top">Wyrmling</td>
        <td valign="top">Superluminal</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">92</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">10</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">44</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">314</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">315</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">314</td>
        <td valign="top">Alter Reality, Cosmic Inspiration, Divine Bonus, Extradimensional, Mind Warp, Thelemic Damage Reduction, Transmortality, Universal Insight</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">605/extrauniversal</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">432nd</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">746</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
        <td valign="top">Very Young</td>
        <td valign="top">Superluminal</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">100</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">10</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">56</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">322</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">323</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">326</td>
        <td valign="top"> </td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">630/extrauniversal</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">476th</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">802</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
        <td valign="top">Young</td>
        <td valign="top">Superluminal</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">108</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">10</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">68</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">330</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">331</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">338</td>
        <td valign="top">1 total Virtual Size Category</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">655/extrauniversal</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">520th</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">858</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
        <td valign="top">Juvenile</td>
        <td valign="top">Superluminal</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">116</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">10</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">80</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">338</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">339</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">350</td>
        <td valign="top">1 total Virtual Size Category</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">680/extrauniversal</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">564th</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">914</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
        <td valign="top">Young Adult</td>
        <td valign="top">Superluminal</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">124</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">10</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">92</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">346</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">347</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">362</td>
        <td valign="top">2 total Virtual Size Categories</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">700/extrauniversal</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">608th</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">970</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
        <td valign="top">Adult</td>
        <td valign="top">Superluminal</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">132</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">10</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">104</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">354</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">355</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">374</td>
        <td valign="top">2 total Virtual Size Categories</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">725/extrauniversal</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">652nd</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">1026</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
        <td valign="top">Mature Adult</td>
        <td valign="top">Superluminal</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">140</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">10</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">116</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">362</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">363</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">386</td>
        <td valign="top">3 total Virtual Size Categories</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">750/extrauniversal</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">696th</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">1082</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
        <td valign="top">Old</td>
        <td valign="top">Superluminal</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">148</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">10</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">128</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">370</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">371</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">398</td>
        <td valign="top">3 total Virtual Size Categories</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">775/extrauniversal</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">740th</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">1138</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
        <td valign="top">Very Old</td>
        <td valign="top">Superluminal</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">156</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">10</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">140</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">378</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">379</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">410</td>
        <td valign="top">4 total Virtual Size Categories</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">800/extrauniversal</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">788th</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">1194</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
        <td valign="top">Ancient</td>
        <td valign="top">Superluminal</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">164</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">10</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">152</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">386</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">387</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">422</td>
        <td valign="top">4 total Virtual Size Categories</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">820/extrauniversal</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">832nd</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">1250</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
        <td valign="top">Wyrm</td>
        <td valign="top">Superluminal</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">172</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">10</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">164</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">394</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">395</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">434</td>
        <td valign="top">5 total Virtual Size Categories</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">845/extrauniversal</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">876th</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">1306</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
        <td valign="top">Great Wyrm</td>
        <td valign="top">Superluminal</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">180</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">10</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">176</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">402</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">403</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">446</td>
        <td valign="top">6 total Virtual Size Categories</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">870/extrauniversal</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">920th</td>
        <td align="center" valign="top">1362</td>
    </tr>
</table>

Firmament Dragons are creatures existing in the Pleroma both as parasites of the Time Lords and heralds of universal growth. They attach themselves to Time Lords and similar entities to siphon off portions of the energy and mass contained within them, which is carefully nurtured, shaped, and used to form "eggs" (themselves entire baby universes) which eventually "hatch" as Wyrmling Firmament Dragons once the universal life cycle is complete.

Occasionally, a Firmament Dragon is known to enter the universe of a comatose Demiurge instead of an actual Time Lord to get this universe-building material, and those rare occasions are times of fearful import for unfortunate natives of the slumbering reality. Furthermore, some such slumbering universes contain, not Demiurges as normally occurs in the Pleroma, but rather unhatched, still-growing Firmament Dragon Wyrmlings- not yet ready to "break the eggshell" and begin their lives.

More powerful than the other three better-known Nehaschimic Dragon types, Firmament Dragons are born with power greater than many actual Demiurges, and do not normally exist within the lower dimensions (or even "Nth Space") as those Nehaschimic Dragon types do.

Combat
(I haven't figured out just what the tactics of one of these would be yet, but for now figure it'll be pretty close to the Nexus Dragon.)

Alter Reality (Su): Firmament Dragons tear at the fabric of any reality they touch. Once per round, as a free action, a Firmament Dragon can duplicate any spell of a level equal to 9 + its number of Automatic Metamagic Capacity feats. This ability even allows it to duplicate Epic spells with a DC equal to or less than the dragon's Spellcraft modifier + 20.

Breath Weapon (Su): A Firmament Dragon's breath weapon destroys part of a foe by causing that portion to revert to a period just after the birth of its universe, essentially turning the affected portion of the target into a miniature Big Bang. This annihilates a percentage of the target's hit points, 1d6% per age category of the dragon; furthermore, this hit point loss is permanent. Permanent damage can only be cured by means of a Limited Wish (which heals 1 point per casting), Miracle, or Wish (both of which heal one point per caster level, per casting). Furthermore, exposure to the explosively expanding time within the false Big Bang ages the target, by an amount shown in the table above. Finally, this breath weapon destroys part of the life energy of the target (essentially, using it to help fuel the false Big Bang), destroying a number of experience points and quintessence as shown in the table above.

Cosmic Inspiration: Firmament Dragons are intimately tied to the universes they create, even the sub-universes growing within their bellies which they eat to nourish. By interacting with these sub-realities, a Firmament Dragon can gain any one Cosmic ability it desires, and can even change this ability once per round as a free action. However, if the dragon has any lasting effects (i.e. effects with a duration other than Instantaneous) in play, then it cannot change the Cosmic ability unless and until it somehow removes those lasting effects. Note that abilities granting constant bonuses do not count as having a duration at all, and thus do not force the dragon to retain the chosen ability.

Divine Bonus (Su): Firmament Dragons are tied to the birth of universes, and therefore gain bonuses tied to the energy of the universes they have created. A Firmament Dragon gains a divine bonus to: armor class, attack rolls, checks (ability checks, caster level checks, skill checks, turning checks), difficulty class (for any special abilities, spell-like abilities, or spells), initiative, saving throws, and Spell Resistance. The value of this bonus is equal to 48 + 16/age category of the dragon.

Extra-Dimensional (Ex): Starting after the first round it is encountered, a Firmament Dragon begins to expand to fill its opponents' perception of their universe. This bestows an additional Virtual Size Category each round on the dragon.

Energy Absorption (Ex): Firmament Dragons are healed by Fire-based attacks.

Energy Immunity (Ex): Firmament Dragons are immune to Sonic effects.

Energy Reflection (Ex): Firmament Dragons reflect Cold-based attacks.

Mind Warp (Ex): The Firmament Dragon's extrauniversal presence extends to 2560 feet per age category of the dragon. Creatures within this radius failing their Will saves against the listed DC go permanently insane, as their minds no longer understand which reality they're in.

Thelemic Damage Reduction (Su): A Firmament Dragon is, by its very nature, able to enter and leave universes at will. By using this ability carefully, it may thus avoid all attacks directed at it in a round by simply not being there when the attack arrives; however, it may only use this ability a certain number of rounds in a row before it tires and must remain within a single universe for a round. A Firmament Dragon may use this ability up to 1 round/age category before it must spend one round recharging the ability; thus, a Wyrmling Firmament Dragon can avoid all attacks in every other round, whereas a Mature Adult can avoid all attacks except in every 8th round.

Transmortality (Su): A Firmament Dragon exists beyond universes, and therefore cannot be permanently destroyed, even by beings of higher divine rank than its divine bonus. A Firmament Dragon which is apparently killed is instead merely forced out of the universe it was just in, or (if attacked in the Pleroma itself) sent into a comatose slumber while it recovers (it regains 1 hit die per day and wakes up when it once again reaches its original total).

Universal Insight (Ex): Firmament Dragons, as custodians of multiple realities and sub-realities, have an incredibly rich and deep understanding of universal laws. A Firmament Dragon gains an insight bonus to: armor class, attack rolls, checks (ability checks, caster level checks, skill checks, turning checks), difficulty class (for any special abilities, spell-like abilities, or spells), initiative, saving throws, and Spell Resistance. The value of this bonus is equal to 48 + 16/age category of the dragon.



There it is, my first stab at making a proper Immortals Handbook super-dragon. I left the CR calculations for later;anybody who cares to beat me to it using version 5 (or UK himself, if he actually has the time and desire to unleash this beast at version 6), feel free.

Comments? Questions? Rotten vegetables?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy paradox dude!

Irrelevant to me, even if it is relevant to somebody else. I'm not interested in what previous myths say on this subject, the game I and my players play is about making up our own myths. We don't care what the Ancient Greeks or the Finns of the Eddas age have to say on these matters, we're not playing in that world. We're also not playing on Earth, or even an alternate-history version of it. Earth myths have as much relevance to our characters as diamonds do to egg salad.

But the point of that is the item itself is so sterile, and its being forced upon players.

It would have been better to simply build those mechanics into the game without the item.

Players may make the choice of whether or not to acquire one based on class, but those without do get left behind. Thus it devolves into essentially the same situation as Cloaks of Resistance. And I can tell you now that of those in my Epic game, several characters do not have Cloaks of Resistance- they went with other items in those slots (a Cloak can be worn in either of two slots, of course). When it comes time to make saves, they do sometimes regret that choice, but it was theirs to make. And yes, the powergamers of the party do have Cloaks of Resistance (along with other save-boosting items), but then again both of them also have highly magical weapons and armor- even though one of them is the party Sorceress. Admittedly she normally only uses a shield, but she does use one.

So you have players with a saving throw difference of more than 20 in some cases...is that right?

An issue easily solved by creating abilities to do the same with Cloaks of Resistance. I like that idea, myself- it's the best of both worlds!

I thought I had created such abilities - that was one of the problems.

Except that you don't, because as others have pointed out- in a world where magic works, somebody is going to arrive at a means of crafting an item to provide resistance to various effects which- translated into game terms as all things from this other world must be for we Earthlings to deal with them- end up looking very much like Cloaks of Resistance. Changing the underlying mechanics of saving throws by making the bonuses higher at each level does nothing to alter the fact that it just plain makes sense, for people who regularly get into dangerous situations, to want a magic item that helps them avoid or resist danger- even if only a little bit.

I can't see how to maintain verisimilitude while selling such an item as a "+6 cloak of epic resistance".

Clearly, the world you envision games taking place in doesn't have people who think along these lines, and in your world Cloaks of Resistance make no sense. That's fine; run your world that way if that's what you like. Many of the rest of us, though, see a world without Cloaks as being the one which makes no sense. We prefer to stick to the standard D&D convention of having magic items (be they Cloaks or something else) which provide bonuses to saving throws.

I think my dislike of them has been blown out of all proportion. I'm not really that bothered.

It simply irks me that a purely mechanical item is being forced upon epic play.

...by the way amazing dragon, give me a few days to go over it in detail...bit busy at the present.

 

[WarDragon]

Are weapon sold as "+6 swords?" If not, then there is no reason besides your irrational bias to assume that cloaks of resistance are referred to as such. It's simply common knowledge that they come in more than one level of power, just like, oh, every other magic item.

 

[dante58701]

I'm gonna once again have to say pfft, cloaks suck.

Nice dragon though.

 

[paradox42]

But the point of that is the item itself is so sterile, and its being forced upon players.

It only looks sterile to you, because of your bias against it. That was the point I was trying to make in my last post on this topic.

It would have been better to simply build those mechanics into the game without the item.

And the same post stated, that wouldn't make sense, because somebody in the world would find a way to make the item anyway. If saving throws exist (as they clearly do in the game, whether or not bonuses are mechanically high enough at any given point), then somebody will make an item to improve them. That's how it is. It doesn't really matter how we who are running and playing the game refer to the item in question, because the people living in the world of the game don't necessarily refer to it that way- or even think of it that way.

So you have players with a saving throw difference of more than 20 in some cases...is that right?

Yes I do. And the ones with the low modifiers tend to be very careful to avoid getting deeply into combat- they prefer to let the heavy hitters do the "up close & personal" stuff. Sometimes, of course, they can't avoid it, and when that happens they just do their best to stay out of the way and support the others. Will saves, incidentally, are the one that is undoubtedly highest across the board among the group- every character has some spellcaster levels except the dragon (who gets good Will saves anyway) and the tank, who has a higher Will save modifier even than some of the actual spellcasters thanks to all the items and bonuses he's carefully piled together (that's the math/statistics major, of course).

I can't see how to maintain verisimilitude while selling such an item as a "+6 cloak of epic resistance".

Which was why I stated in my post, you accept that it isn't sold that way. As Wardragon said, this is really no different than saying that another item is a "+6 Fiery Power Greatsword" or a "+5 Plate Mail of Great Fortification." Neither of those names makes a great deal of sense unless we assume people in the game world know about the game mechanics, yet we ourselves must refer to them that way to understand what they do. If you want to name every single weapon and suit of armor the PCs come across, like Tolkein, then go right ahead- but your players will work out the stats of the item anyway and most likely won't refer to the item by name unless it's intelligent and insists on being referred to that way. Also, you'll most likely run out of names to give those items pretty quickly. Ultimately, this issue is one that straddles the gulf of the game rules, and we have to sort of wink at ourselves about how we're enjoying a game rather than hearing real tales of another world.

...by the way amazing dragon, give me a few days to go over it in detail...bit busy at the present.

Thank you. Do finish the art first, we're all waiting for it.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya dude!

Are weapon sold as "+6 swords?" If not, then there is no reason besides your irrational bias to assume that cloaks of resistance are referred to as such. It's simply common knowledge that they come in more than one level of power, just like, oh, every other magic item.

I think the whole 'plus factor' is one reason why they changed damage reduction to special effects and materials.

By that I mean the whole 'plus factor' is metagaming after all, whereas magic adamantine sword is not.

 

[WarDragon]

So.... how is "magic cloak that protects you from harm" any more or less metagamey than "adamantine sword enchanted to cut better?"

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

So.... how is "magic cloak that protects you from harm" any more or less metagamey than "adamantine sword enchanted to cut better?"

The 'pluses' are the metagame part.

 

[WarDragon]

Yeah.... and they have equal amounts of that, and equal amounts of non-metagame flavor. I'm still not seeing any kind of logical explanation for why cloaks of resistance are any worse than weapons and armor.