Immortals Handbook - Epic Bestiary (Epic Monster Discussion)

[dante58701]

What is it with this stupid cloak obsession. Superman was cool, but he is way overrated. You people are starting to derail the thread by beating that poor dead horse to a maggoty pulp. And I thought I was bad, ur starting to make me seem reasonable.


I'll attempt to end this pointless debate now by say the following.

CLOAKS ARE STUPID AND NOBODY CARES!!!

Krusty is absolutely right on the money on this one. No amount of discussion is going to make him change his mind, and you're beginning to annoy even me, and I'm the most annoying person on earth.

 

[WarDragon]

Quiet Dante, the adults are talking. I've provided plenty of reasonable arguments for my end, I'm still waiting for U_K to make a single one for his.

And in case you missed it, we're not arguing over the actual "cloak" shape of the item, but whether things that give a resistance bonus to saves have a place in the game. It can be a vest, amulet, ring, belt, whatever, the points are unchanged.

 

[dante58701]

Quiet Dante, the adults are talking. I've provided plenty of reasonable arguments for my end, I'm still waiting for U_K to make a single one for his.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah...

 

[Pssthpok]

The fact is, UK, that a resistance bonus is only mundane in your eyes because that's all the flavor that a CoR can support. Unlike a weapon or armor, which can have more "flavorful" elements embedded in its design.
However, one thing we're missing in the discussion is a proper comparison. Weapons and armor are allowed to bypass the "+5/+6" non-epic limitations because they're granted a sort of "sidecar" for these flavored abilities. CoRs are limited to a single "set" of bonuses, all of which perform the same function (i.e. bonus to saves) in the same amount of mundaneness as that same "set" of bonuses on a weapon or armor. So, in a direct comparison, a weapon or armor is just as mundane as a CoR and is just as forced-upon PCs in the long term as the other Big Six (we need bonuses beyond BAB and Str to hit and damage once we get into the mid-level range). The thing a CoR lacks is a customizable, flavorful sidecar for additional tweaks... for which we should be glad, really. Makes things simple, not having that to deal with. Choices are nice, but if everything were designed around choice, we'd be playing HERO or GURPS, not a modestly prefabbed system like D&D.

So, coupled with that, the fact that it is one of the most popular items across the classes, you think it's a bad item, right? Well, I agree in that regard; it's vanilla and uninteresting and overwrought. I also agree with WarDragon in the sense that we're playing a game here.

If we integrated the resistance bonus into the classes themselves and eliminated the items, somewhere someone would think (as a player): "I want to get my saves higher, isn't there an item that does that?" Because that's inevitable, and because there should be an item that does that. The CoR handles that well, and the current set of rules for class saving throws facilitates the item's existence and manages to integrate its effects without makign saves too high.
The PCs themselves, in game, would think along the lines of: "I need to shield myself from the varied dangers of the world; it would be nice to have a magic... hmm.. a magic cloak to protect me..." And we'd be right back to square one - i.e. having CoRs - but with the particular difference of already having increased the base saving throw modifiers.

If this is more or less an attempt to get rid of the 'only fails on a 1' result of your changing DC formulas to 20 + DvR + ability modifier, well you can forget it. You're getting dangerously close to a duct tape situation here: making rules to cover up for other new rules that don't quite work, just so you might not have to backpedal and in order to save face and perpetuate the assertion that you know better than the rest of us.

 

[dante58701]

Now someones making more sense.

Perhaps there should be some new rules made up regarding save bonuses and magic items.

I personally have liked the idea that armor bonuses extend to saving throws as well.

+5 Heavy Fortification Full Plate, +5 to all saving throws.

It kinda makes more sense than a flimsy cloak or a tiny ring doing that kind of thing.

Plus...they used to do that in old old old D&D.

 

[Pssthpok]

The object itself doesn't come into it, aside from appropriateness. A glove giving you bonuses to Dex doesn't make much sense, either... but who cares?

 

[dante58701]

This is as far as Ive gotten on my world destroyer.

It still needs a lot of work, but this is the basic idea.


Orichalcum Cube
Macro-Tiny Construct
Hit Dice:40,000d100 (4,081,920 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: Fly 480' (Perfect)
Armor Class:40,333 (+40,451 natural, -128 size), touch -118, flat-footed 40,333
Base Attack/Grapple: +30,000/+30,183
Attack: Slam +30,151 melee (1,280d10+151)
Full Attack: Slam +30,151 melee (1,280d10+151)
Space/Reach: 1,250 ft./1,250 ft.
Special Attacks: Death throes, plasma beam, reconfiguration, sentinels, traps
Special Qualities: Construct traits, damage reduction 100/ - , darkvision 60 ft., fast healing 100, immunity to magic, lowlight vision, unearthly construction
Saves: Fort +19,996, Ref +19,996, Will +19,996
Abilities: Str 322 (+151), Dex 10, Con - , Int - , Wis 10, Cha 1
Environment: Any
Organization: Army (orichalcum cube plus 500 sentinels)
Challenge Rating: ???
Treasure: -
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: -
Level Adjustment: -

Combat

Plasma Beam (Su): As a free action, every 1d2 rounds, the orichalcum golem can generate a beam of divine fire with an effective range of 17.5 miles. Targets struck by the beam suffer 40,000d100 (d100/Hit Dice of the orichalcum cube) divine fire damage (average ). This ability is a ranged touch effect.

Reconfiguration (Su): At the behest of it's creator, once per round, as a free action, an orichalcum cube can reconfigure it's internal structure. This ability functions similarly to a stone shape spell, except, it only affects the orichalcum cube's internal structure.

Sentinels (Su): At the behest of it's creator, once per round, as a free action, an orichalcum cube can manufacture 1 orichalcum sentinel, 2 orichalcum golems, or 4 orichalcum guardians.

Unearthly Construction (Ex): These cosmic constructs use d100s for Hit Dice. Orichalcum golems also have maximum hit points per Hit Die.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey WarDragon!

Yeah.... and they have equal amounts of that, and equal amounts of non-metagame flavor. I'm still not seeing any kind of logical explanation for why cloaks of resistance are any worse than weapons and armor.

When you take the pluses out of weapons and armour they are still valid magic items.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there!

The fact is, UK, that a resistance bonus is only mundane in your eyes because that's all the flavor that a CoR can support. Unlike a weapon or armor, which can have more "flavorful" elements embedded in its design.

Correct. But what they have done is make a flavourless item integral to the mechanics of the game.

However, one thing we're missing in the discussion is a proper comparison. Weapons and armor are allowed to bypass the "+5/+6" non-epic limitations because they're granted a sort of "sidecar" for these flavored abilities. CoRs are limited to a single "set" of bonuses, all of which perform the same function (i.e. bonus to saves) in the same amount of mundaneness as that same "set" of bonuses on a weapon or armor. So, in a direct comparison, a weapon or armor is just as mundane as a CoR and is just as forced-upon PCs in the long term as the other Big Six (we need bonuses beyond BAB and Str to hit and damage once we get into the mid-level range). The thing a CoR lacks is a customizable, flavorful sidecar for additional tweaks... for which we should be glad, really. Makes things simple, not having that to deal with. Choices are nice, but if everything were designed around choice, we'd be playing HERO or GURPS, not a modestly prefabbed system like D&D.

So, coupled with that, the fact that it is one of the most popular items across the classes, you think it's a bad item, right? Well, I agree in that regard; it's vanilla and uninteresting and overwrought. I also agree with WarDragon in the sense that we're playing a game here.

I'm not saying its a bad item on its own. Only that its a bad item to make integral to the game.

If we integrated the resistance bonus into the classes themselves and eliminated the items, somewhere someone would think (as a player): "I want to get my saves higher, isn't there an item that does that?" Because that's inevitable, and because there should be an item that does that. The CoR handles that well, and the current set of rules for class saving throws facilitates the item's existence and manages to integrate its effects without makign saves too high.

Yes but what you could have is say a minor cloak of resistance (+25% to save rolls - effectively +5) and a major cloak of resistance (+50% or +10).

The PCs themselves, in game, would think along the lines of: "I need to shield myself from the varied dangers of the world; it would be nice to have a magic... hmm.. a magic cloak to protect me..." And we'd be right back to square one - i.e. having CoRs - but with the particular difference of already having increased the base saving throw modifiers.

Well, like I said from the beginning of this particular debate, its something that would need built into the game at ground level so its nothing I plan on tackling myself. Simply food for thought.

If this is more or less an attempt to get rid of the 'only fails on a 1' result of your changing DC formulas to 20 + DvR + ability modifier, well you can forget it. You're getting dangerously close to a duct tape situation here: making rules to cover up for other new rules that don't quite work, just so you might not have to backpedal and in order to save face and perpetuate the assertion that you know better than the rest of us.

The problem is the 10 + 1/2 HD + Ability Mod mechanic is broken. If I'm duct taping anything its the official rules, not my own rules.

 

[Pssthpok]

Hey hey, UK!

The problem is the 10 + 1/2 HD + Ability Mod mechanic is broken.

And I'm saying that this assertion is wrong.

Lemme ask this: what makes you feel this way?
Is it your work in G&M? If yes, then the problem comes from your own builds, and the remedy lies therein, not in changing how we calculate save DCs into something that doesn't take into account the creature's HD.