Immortals Handbook - Epic Bestiary (Epic Monster Discussion)

dragonier

Community Supporter
Upper_Krust said:
Hiya mate! :)



Cool. :cool:

...provided they weren't just moving the number on the shelves up and down to make it look like it was selling! :uhoh:

I'll know better at the end of September (sales report time).

I bought one! I'm quite pleased with it too. Some of Mongoose's other Flaming Cobra line products don't seem to have the binding quite right, but I've had no problem with the IH Bestiary. Now the couple of copies of Nephandum that my FLGS has on their shelf are a different matter. They seem to be coming apart just sitting there.
 

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Howdy! :)

Adslahnit said:
My original logic was that if a dire creature's advanced HD gives it extra skill points and feats, then it should also gain more ability score increases (and no, ability score bonuses from size increases don't count as "ability score increases").

Its simply game mechanic derived, not logic derived. A lot of 3E isn't logical in tha regard. ;)
 

Howdy dragonier! :)

dragonier said:
I bought one!

Hey thanks! ;)

I'm quite pleased with it too.

Only quite pleased? :uhoh:

Which bits could have been better (I like constructive criticism - so be honest)?

Some of Mongoose's other Flaming Cobra line products don't seem to have the binding quite right, but I've had no problem with the IH Bestiary. Now the couple of copies of Nephandum that my FLGS has on their shelf are a different matter. They seem to be coming apart just sitting there.

Well in Mongoose' defence, they are pretty new to the whole printing thing. The binding on all of my books (or at least the main copy I use) seems perfectly fine, although there was that border on the cover I was unhappy with - still don't know how that happened. But I am sure now that they have had a few months practice at it, the books will be great from now on. ;)
 

I was able to update my PDF version of the Bestiary with the print version's CRs and ECLs, using the values from the website. (Rearranging the rows in the CR/ECL chart was tough since it was a PDF.) However, I'm still missing the CR and LA adjustments for the Akalich, Amidah, Atata, and Flaga templates. I know that the Amidah's LA should be updated to LA +120, but what about the other templates? Anybody with the print version care to fill me in?
 

Hey there! :)

Adslahnit said:
I was able to update my PDF version of the Bestiary with the print version's CRs and ECLs, using the values from the website. (Rearranging the rows in the CR/ECL chart was tough since it was a PDF.) However, I'm still missing the CR and LA adjustments for the Akalich, Amidah, Atata, and Flaga templates. I know that the Amidah's LA should be updated to LA +120, but what about the other templates? Anybody with the print version care to fill me in?

Akalich +60 (w. full equip)
Atata +20 (-1/3 per level of spellcasting ability lost)...no equip
Flaga +22 (w. full equip)
 

Upper_Krust said:
Akalich +60 (w. full equip)
Atata +20 (-1/3 per level of spellcasting ability lost)...no equip
Flaga +22 (w. full equip)

The ECLs seem to check out, going by the "ECL = 1.5x CR" rule:

Alabaster = 117 (fighter levels) + 8 (vampire) + 120 (amidah) = ECL 245 = CR 163
Nimrod = 60 (wizard levels) + 60 (akalich) = ECL 120 = CR 80
Argento = 16.5 (ECL of cloud giant, 11 * 1.5) + 13 (ranger levels) + 22 = ECL 51.5 = CR 34

But what about the CR adjustments for the various templates? If the "ECL = 1.5x CR" rule also applies to templates, that would make the Akalich template CR +40, the Amidah template CR +80, the Atata template CR +13 (-0.222 per level of spellcasting ability lost), and the Flaga template CR +15. Is this correct?

Also, how do you determine "level of spellcasting ability lost" for creatures that have spell-like abilities, and for creatures that have both spell-like abilities and actual spellcasting?

Lastly, these were the ECLs and LAs I calculated for the elementals:

Quintessence Elemental/Unelemental, Small = CR 10 = ECL 15 = 15 HD, LA +0 (previously LA +15)
Quintessence Elemental/Unelemental, Medium = CR 13 = ECL 20 = 20 HD, LA +0 (previously LA +20)
Quintessence Elemental/Unelemental, Large = CR 20 = ECL 30 = 30 HD, LA +0 (previously LA +30)
Quintessence Elemental/Unelemental, Huge = CR 26 = ECL 39 = 40 HD, LA -1 (previously LA +40)
Quintessence Elemental/Unelemental, Greater = CR 40 = ECL 60 = 60 HD, LA +0 (previously LA +60)
Quintessence Elemental/Unelemental, Elder = CR 53 = ECL 80 = 80 HD, LA +0 (previously LA +80)

Did I get the revised LAs and ECLs for the elementals right?
 
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Howdy! :)

Adslahnit said:
The ECLs seem to check out, going by the "ECL = 1.5x CR" rule:

Alabaster = 117 (fighter levels) + 8 (vampire) + 120 (amidah) = ECL 245 = CR 163
Nimrod = 60 (wizard levels) + 60 (akalich) = ECL 120 = CR 80
Argento = 16.5 (ECL of cloud giant, 11 * 1.5) + 13 (ranger levels) + 22 = ECL 51.5 = CR 34

But what about the CR adjustments for the various templates? If the "ECL = 1.5x CR" rule also applies to templates, that would make the Akalich template CR +40, the Amidah template CR +80, the Atata template CR +13 (-0.222 per level of spellcasting ability lost), and the Flaga template CR +15. Is this correct?

Yes.

Adslahnit said:
Also, how do you determine "level of spellcasting ability lost" for creatures that have spell-like abilities, and for creatures that have both spell-like abilities and actual spellcasting?

Pick their highest level spell-like ability or spell they can cast and double it.

Adslahnit said:
Lastly, these were the ECLs and LAs I calculated for the elementals:

Quintessence Elemental/Unelemental, Small = CR 10 = ECL 15 = 15 HD, LA +0 (previously LA +15)
Quintessence Elemental/Unelemental, Medium = CR 13 = ECL 20 = 20 HD, LA +0 (previously LA +20)
Quintessence Elemental/Unelemental, Large = CR 20 = ECL 30 = 30 HD, LA +0 (previously LA +30)
Quintessence Elemental/Unelemental, Huge = CR 26 = ECL 39 = 40 HD, LA -1 (previously LA +40)
Quintessence Elemental/Unelemental, Greater = CR 40 = ECL 60 = 60 HD, LA +0 (previously LA +60)
Quintessence Elemental/Unelemental, Elder = CR 53 = ECL 80 = 80 HD, LA +0 (previously LA +80)

Did I get the revised LAs and ECLs for the elementals right?

I think its 10, 13, 20, 26, 40, 53 for CRs.
 

Upper_Krust said:
Pick their highest level spell-like ability or spell they can cast and double it.

So a creature with a 9th-level spell-like ability would be considered as having "18 levels of spellcasting ability"? I think it should be "highest spell level available x2, -1" since it takes a 13th-level caster to cast a 7th-level spell, a 15th-level caster to cast an 8th-level spell, a 17th-level caster to cast a 9th level spell, etc. However, the difference is somewhat negligible, so I guess it works out. I suppose you could also use the parameters for spell-like abilities from v5 of the challenge rating PDF.

Upper_Krust said:
I think its 10, 13, 20, 26, 40, 53 for CRs.

That's... exactly what I said. In the unupdated PDF version of the Bestiary, the ECLs for the elementals were 30, 40, 60, 80, 120, and 160. If we use the "ECL = 1.5x CR" rule with the revised CRs from the print version of the Bestiary, the ECLs for the elementals would be 15, 20, 30, 39, 60, and 80. Which is the correct set of ECLs for the quintessence elementals and unelementals?

Lastly, what would be the LA for a creature with both the Amidah and Akalich templates? It's supposed to be LA +180, but there are a few overlaps between the two templates. Firstly, the Akalich already adds its Charisma bonus as a deflection bonus to its armor class (overlaps with the Amidah's deflection bonus). Secondly, the Akalich is already omnicompetent and maven (overlaps with the Amidah's omnicompetence and maven). Thirdly, the Akalich's immunity to magic and supernatural abilities makes the Amidah's spell resistance redundant. Fourthly, the Akalich already has immunity to fire and cold, just like the Amidah. Fifthly, the Amidah and Akalich both have DR, one of which is going to go to waste. Sixthly, the Akalich will not be able to benefit from the +75 bonus to Strength and Constitution since it has no such ability scores.

For convenience's sake, I've come up with a combination template which is just the result of combining the Akalich and Amidah templates (it's called the Negalich because I couldn't think of anything else):

CREATING A NEGALICH
"Negalich" is a template that can be added to any akalich or amidah creature, overlapping with those previous templates rather than adding to them.
The base creature’s type remains unchanged. The negalich uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Size and Type: A negalich is the same size it was in life. It gains the incorporeal subtype and traits.

Hit Dice: Increase all current and future Hit Dice to d100s if not already. A negalich always has maximum hit points per Hit Die.

Speed: A negalich can fly at 9000 ft. with perfect manueverability. A negalich loses all other modes of movement.

Armor Class: A negalich loses any natural armor bonuses, but gains an insight bonus equal to its Wisdom modifier and a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma modifier. The negalich also gains a +60 luck bonus to its armor class (as per its luck special quality).

Damage: An negalich’s touch attack uses negative energy to deal 2d20 points of damage per Hit Die of the negalich. The negalich adds its Charisma bonus to the damage, as well as a +60 luck bonus (as per its luck special quality).

Special Attacks: A negalich retains all the base creature’s special attacks and gains those described below. All save DCs are equal to (10 + ½ negalich’s HD + negalich’s Cha modifier + 60 [luck]) unless otherwise noted.
Dread Aura (Su): A negalich is shrouded in an aura of death and weakness. Any creature within a radius equal to 100 feet + 10 feet/Hit Die is affected as if by a symbol of death and a symbol of weakness, however there is no hit point limit for these effects. All targets must two Fortitude saves every round they are within the area, one to avoid the symbol of death and one to avoid the symbol of weakness.
Overshadow (Su): As a standard action, a negalich can sacrifice one of its captured immortal spirits to wrap a shroud of death around a single opponent. This attack deals damage equal to the negalich’s own maximum hit point total (no save) and has a range of 100 feet + 10 feet/Hit Die.
Spells: All of a negalich’s spells receive a +60 bonus to caster level and save DCs, as per its luck special quality.
Spell-like Abilities: At will - alter self, animate dead, astral projection, create greater undead, death knell, destruction, enervation, greater dispel magic, greater teleport, harm, planeshift, slay living, telekinesis, wish; 3/day - wail of the banshee; 1/day - ruin; 1/week - momento mori. The caster level is equal to the base creature’s Hit Dice/Levels + 60 (as per its luck special quality). The save DCs are Charisma-based and include a +60 luck bonus.
Stasis Touch (Su): As temporal stasis except as a supernatural ability. Any creature touched by a negalich must make a Fortitude save or be permanently placed in suspended animation.
Trap the Soul (Su): A negalich can trap even immortal spirits. To use this power, it selects any target within 1500 feet. The target is allowed a Fortitude save to negate the effect. If the target makes its save, half of its levels are drained. If the target fails its save, its spirit is trapped within one of the negalich’s eight soul gems. The negalich can only capture eight spirits or souls at any given time, one per soul gem. Mortal souls or spirits weaker than demi-deity rank are devoured within a single day. Those of captured immortals of demi-deity rank or above are used to fuel the negalich’s overshadow and rejuvenation abilities.

Special Qualities: A negalich retains all the base creature’s special qualities and gains those described below.
Damage Reduction (Ex): A negalich receives damage reduction 150/cursed and epic. Only weapons that are both cursed and epic can penetrate its damage reduction. However, if the negalich has 150 Hit Dice/Levels or more, it instead gains impenetrable damage reduction equal to its Hit Dice/Levels (rounded down to the nearest multiple of 5).
Evil Eye (Ex): A negalich's opponents suffer a -12 luck penalty to: armor class; attack rolls; checks (ability checks, caster level checks, skill checks, turning checks); damage rolls; difficulty class (for any special abilities, spell-like abilities, spells); initiative; saving throws; spell resistance and turn resistance (if applicable). This effect has a range of 400 ft. + 40 ft./Hit Dice with no save.
Fast Healing (Ex): A negalich gains fast healing 100.
Immunities (Ex): A negalich is immune to acid, cold, electricity and fire damage.
Immunity to Magic (Ex): An negalich is immune to all spells, spell-like abilities and supernatural effects except as follows:
A dispel evil spell inflicts 1 point of damage per spell level.
A holy smite spell affects an negalich normally.
A shatter spell affects an negalich as if it were a crystalline creature, but deals only half normal damage (then apply sonic resistance).
Incorporeal Traits: Can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, or magic weapons, with a 50% chance to ignore damage from any corporeal source. Can pass through solid objects at will, and own attacks pass through armor. Always moves silently.
Luck (Ex): A negalich adds a +60 luck bonus to: armor class; attack rolls; checks (ability checks, caster level checks, skill checks, turning checks); damage rolls; difficulty class (for any special abilities, spell-like abilities, spells); initiative; saving throws; spell resistance and turn resistance.
Omnicompetent (Ex): A negalich knows all skills and has maximum ranks in all skills.
Phylacteric Transference (Su): Any items kept in close proximity (within 1 foot per Hit Die) to a negalich’s phylactery transfer all their benefits to the negalich regardless of the distance between the negalich and its phylactery. Standard limits on types of items apply.
Rejuvenation (Ex): When a negalich is destroyed, it immediately rejuvenates to full hit points by sacrificing one of the immortal spirits trapped within its soul gems. A negalich will typically have 2d4 captured immortal spirits within its soul gems when encountered. Only the spirits of true immortals (demi-deities and above) can bestow the ability to rejuvenate upon the negalich.
Sonic Resistance (Ex): A negalich has sonic resistance 100.
Spell Resistance (Ex): A negalich has spell resistance equal to (10 + the negalich’s Hit Dice/Levels + 60 [luck]). Since a negalich is already immune to most spells and spell-like abilities, this spell resistance only applies when the negalich is targeted by a dispel evil, holy smite or shatter spell.
Turn Resistance (Ex): A negalich has turn resistance +160 (its luck bonus is already included in this bonus).
Undead Traits: Immune to poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, necromantic effects, mind-affecting effects, and any effect requiring a Fortitude save that doesn’t unless it also works on objects. Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects. Healed by negative energy. Not at risk of death from massive damage, but destroyed at 0 hit points or less. Darkvision 60 ft. Cannot be raised, resurrection works only if creature is willing.

Saves: A negalich gains a +60 luck bonus to all its saves (as per its luck special quality).

Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Dex +75, Int +125, Wis +125, Cha +125. Being an incorporeal undead creature, a negalich has no Strength or Constitution score.

Skills: A negalich receives a +100 racial bonus to Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive and Spot checks. In addition, a negalich also receives a +60 bonus to all its skill checks (as per its luck special quality), including those already having a racial bonus.

Feats: A negalich gains 10 free feats (which can be epic feats). An negalich also gains the Still Spell metamagic feat for free.

Environment: Negative energy or negative quasi-elemental plane.

Organization: Solitary.

Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature +???.

Treasure: Quadruple standard.

Alignment: Any evil.

Advancement: By character class.

Level Adjustment: Same as the base creature +???.


There. That was just done by combining the Akalich and Amidah templates, the PDF Bestiary versions at least. I don't have the print version of the Bestiary nor a beta copy of Ascension, so the Omnicompetent, Evil Eye, Luck, and Wish abilities are probably out of date. If anybody wishes to update those abilities, go ahead. It still needs a CR and LA assigned to it too.
 
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dante58701

Banned
Banned
Ahhhh....it got cut off!!!

Or...is there no Negalich?

Don't forget the phylactery, soulgems, and to add the separated Maven and Omnicompetent under skills as was done with the divine templates.

Also...Inner Eye (prereq. for Evil Eye...which is also different now) and change Luck to fortuity and the spell-like ability wish to Alter Reality (since this was the intent for the wish anyways).

I have the revised Amidah Template somewhere...Krusty might have it too, not sure. But the revisions were based entirely on his notes.
 

mercucio

First Post
UK,

Wondering if you could help with some ECL adjustments. I'm trying to convert the shadow giant from Fiend Folio and need to know if the estimates for the following are accurate. Thanks!

Sneak attack +4d6 (0.8 ECL)
Death Attack (0.5 ECL)
Hide In Plain Sight (0.5 ECL)



Also, before I forget, how's Ascension coming along?
 

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