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CRGreathouse

Community Supporter
Have you seen WotC's Yeenoghu writeup for Hordes of the Abyss? What do you think? Obviously, your version is a fair bit more powerful....

Speaking of your version -- how strong is it, really? Any idea of the HD or CR? Haffrung Helleyes seems to be concerned about the HotA Yeenoghu's Int score, but I imagine yours will have better mental stats all around.
 

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Hey CRGreathouse mate! :)

CRGreathouse said:
For those keeping track at home, it would normally take a Leadership score of 4866 to get 483,600 followers. Yeenoghu would have to gain almost 10,000 Cha to get that score. ;)

Wrong guess! :p

CRGreathouse said:
I don't like your idea as written.

:eek:

CRGreathouse said:
Consider a character with 65,535 2nd-level followers. By the standard rules, the character will have one 17th level follower (and no higher).

Except for one Cohort...and this doesn't preclude allies and so forth.

CRGreathouse said:
By your rules, the character would have one 33rd level follower, I think, and no higher.

See above.

CRGreathouse said:
Now suppose another character has 65,536 2nd-level followers. The standard rules give this character one 18th level follower -- appropriate, since that character has more 2nd-level followers. Under your system, the character would get no more followers. This gives the character with the lower Leadership score a much more powerful retinue (perhaps a hundred times stronger).

I'm sorry you have totally lost me. :confused:

CRGreathouse said:
My essential problem is the that the number of time you round is essentially random, and the number of followers is no longer a monotonically increasing function of the Leadership score. (A person could gain a level and lose high-level followers.)

Actually the number of followers is not random its always perfectly double the number of ECL 2 characters. ;)

CRGreathouse said:
Further, if this system were used for Epic Leadership, it would make a powerful feat even stronger. That probably isn't right.

I wouldn't even require a character to have Epic Leadership to gain this. To me its redundant. The leadership tables should progress ad infinitum without requiring another feat. Its like the Improved Heighten Spell epic feat - totally redundant.

CRGreathouse said:
I don't think the question is one of simplicity vs. detail. That's a misrepresentation; neither system is significantly more complex. Yours does move about more randomly and give many more high-level followers, though. That's the decision that needs to be made.

Random - I say thee nay!

CRGreathouse said:
If you want to give out more high-level followers, I'd suggest just adding (Leadership score / X) to the top, where X is perhaps 10 or 20.

That was something I was potentially eyeing up if the other way was deemed too complex.
 

Hello again! :)

CRGreathouse said:
Have you seen WotC's Yeenoghu writeup for Hordes of the Abyss? What do you think?

I already posted my thoughts in reply to James Jacobs in the BIG HotA thread in General Discussion. Of course he didn't reply to it because his position is indefensible.

CRGreathouse said:
Obviously, your version is a fair bit more powerful....

Demon Princes are demipowers as far as I am concerned.

CRGreathouse said:
Speaking of your version -- how strong is it, really? Any idea of the HD or CR?

37 HD Converted from the original 100 hp 1st Ed. total. (100 divided by 4 x 1.5). The same conversion rules I have on my website.

CRGreathouse said:
Haffrung Helleyes seems to be concerned about the HotA Yeenoghu's Int score, but I imagine yours will have better mental stats all around.

Not necessarily.

Off the top of my head probably something like...

Str 38, Dex 22, Con 30, Int 20, Wis 24, Cha 24

Thats before possible epic feats and divine abilities.

Triple Flail would be +23 total (+12, with +11 worth of special abilities).

Scale Mail would be +33 total (+17, with +16 worth of special abilities).

Natural Armour bonus +11, Deflection +7, Divine +6
 

Knight Otu

First Post
Upper_Krust said:
I'm sorry you have totally lost me. :confused:



Actually the number of followers is not random its always perfectly double the number of ECL 2 characters. ;)

If I understood your system correctly, the problem is the following:

ECL 2: 65,535
ECL 3: 32,767 (+1)
ECL 4: 16,383 (+2)
ECL 5: 8191 (+3)
ECL 6: 4095 (+4)
ECL 7: 2047 (+5)
ECL 8: 1023 (+6)
ECL 9: 511 (+7)
ECL 10: 255 (+8)
ECL 11: 127 (+9)
ECL 12: 63 (+10)
ECL 13: 31 (+11)
ECL 14: 15 (+12)
ECL 15: 7 (+13)
ECL 16: 3 (+14)
ECL 17: 1 (+15)
ECL 18: 1 (+14)
ECL 19: 1 (+13)
ECL 20: 1 (+12)
ECL 21: 1 (+11)
ECL 22: 1 (+10)
...
ECL 32: 1 (+0)

compared to

ECL 2: 65,536
ECL 3: 32,768
ECL 4: 16,384
ECL 5: 8192
ECL 6: 4096
ECL 7: 2048
ECL 8: 1024
ECL 9: 512
ECL 10: 256
ECL 11: 128
ECL 12: 64
ECL 13: 32
ECL 14: 16
ECL 15: 8
ECL 16: 4
ECL 17: 2
ECL 18: 1

I think you see what CRGreathouse means? Though I'm not sure whether these numbers of followers are possible to achieve (meaning those exact numbers, not the magnitude).
 

CRGreathouse

Community Supporter
Upper_Krust said:
Wrong guess! :p

The right guess is fairly obvious, actually, but let's not get into it here. I'll try to update my Leadrship calculator for your rules as I get the chance.

Upper_Krust said:
Actually the number of followers is not random its always perfectly double the number of ECL 2 characters. ;)

Let F be the number of 2nd-level followers.

Under the standard system:
There are between 12F-1 and 12F+ceil(lg F)-2 total followers*.
The highest-level follower is level ceil(lg F)+2.

In your system:
There are 12F total followers.
The highest-level follower is level floor(lg F)+2+sum(i=0..infinity, (F / 2^i) % 2).


In the standard system, there's a very small amount of variability in the number of total followers. Some levels it jumps up, others it changes only a little. This is comparitive, though; the biggest discrepancy between what you'd expect and what you get is roughly lg(F)/2. Around *one million* followers, that's a variability of 10 -- not bad, considering each +1 to Leadership gives about 120 new followers. Also, it's montonically increasing: you never lose followers at any given level by gaining Leadership score.

In your system, there's great variability between the level of the highest-level follower. In the standard system, there's almost none. Your system is slightly more difficult to use, but the level of the most powerful follower changes in an essentially random manner (in a particular, well-defined sense).

* For F at least 2. Small cases obviously don't interest us here. Notation: ceil = ceiling, the "round up" function; floor is the "round down" function; lg = base-2 logarithm. lg x is about 3 times the number of digits in x -- that is, it's a small number. % is the modulo operator; x % 2 is 0 for x even and 1 for x odd.
 

GQuail

Explorer
Upper_Krust said:
I already posted my thoughts in reply to James Jacobs in the BIG HotA thread in General Discussion. Of course he didn't reply to it because his position is indefensible.

ZING! :>

Without going off-topic, I think that Mr Jacobs replied plenty of times in that thread, including on the most recent page where he says what his preferred technique for statting the beasties in question would have been (CR20ish and CR30ish versions) but also said something of why that didn't happen. Whether or not you agree with him, perhaps we should be staying clear of statements like the bolded one, which only lead to chaos.

Re: your leadership rules: I think that removing Epic Leadership is probably a good idea, but I'm not sure about your alternate way of working out followers. Changing to rounding down is a good idea, since that's the standard D&D maths idea: but adding on all these extra "rounded" followers seems a bit odd. I don't think they're going to be high enough level to really "matter" to the kind of challenges the Immortals will be facing: your originale xample had a ECL 26 as his highest follower, but an ECL 46 cohort, so he must be at least ECL 48 himself. Frankly, will the difference in effectiveness between ECL 18 and 28 followers make a damn bit of difference in game for that character? Is it worth making a player go through this extra work in handling all these followers when the in-game benefit is relatively minor?

It does, as you say, grant them a better "middle management" for their minions. If you're going to play the sort of immortals who will have Inevitables/Slaadi/Demons/Guardinals/whatever on command, you're going to need some bigger slots for followers. It certainly isn't unbalancing IMHO.

Now I@ve made my pre-order,, the excitement at getting my hands on your latest creation is mounting. It's almost enough to get a Scotsman through the fact he still hasn't got his Community Supporter status back, and the endless World Cup on the news.... ;-)
 

Knight Otu said:
If I understood your system correctly, the problem is the following:

ECL 2: 65,535
ECL 3: 32,767 (+1)
ECL 4: 16,383 (+2)
ECL 5: 8191 (+3)
ECL 6: 4095 (+4)
ECL 7: 2047 (+5)
ECL 8: 1023 (+6)
ECL 9: 511 (+7)
ECL 10: 255 (+8)
ECL 11: 127 (+9)
ECL 12: 63 (+10)
ECL 13: 31 (+11)
ECL 14: 15 (+12)
ECL 15: 7 (+13)
ECL 16: 3 (+14)
ECL 17: 1 (+15)
ECL 18: 1 (+14)
ECL 19: 1 (+13)
ECL 20: 1 (+12)
ECL 21: 1 (+11)
ECL 22: 1 (+10)
...
ECL 32: 1 (+0)

compared to

ECL 2: 65,536
ECL 3: 32,768
ECL 4: 16,384
ECL 5: 8192
ECL 6: 4096
ECL 7: 2048
ECL 8: 1024
ECL 9: 512
ECL 10: 256
ECL 11: 128
ECL 12: 64
ECL 13: 32
ECL 14: 16
ECL 15: 8
ECL 16: 4
ECL 17: 2
ECL 18: 1

I think you see what CRGreathouse means? Though I'm not sure whether these numbers of followers are possible to achieve (meaning those exact numbers, not the magnitude).

Yes I see what he means now. Its a large benefit when you end on a 5. Technically you couldn't end on a 5 to begin with, but you could end on a 0, which would give you a 5 on the next division.
 

Hiya mate! :)

CRGreathouse said:
The right guess is fairly obvious, actually, but let's not get into it here. I'll try to update my Leadrship calculator for your rules as I get the chance.

I'd be very impressed if anyone guesses exactly how I am handling Leadership for Yeenoghu. :p

CRGreathouse said:
Let F be the number of 2nd-level followers.

Under the standard system:
There are between 12F-1 and 12F+ceil(lg F)-2 total followers*.
The highest-level follower is level ceil(lg F)+2.

In your system:
There are 12F total followers.
The highest-level follower is level floor(lg F)+2+sum(i=0..infinity, (F / 2^i) % 2).


In the standard system, there's a very small amount of variability in the number of total followers. Some levels it jumps up, others it changes only a little. This is comparitive, though; the biggest discrepancy between what you'd expect and what you get is roughly lg(F)/2. Around *one million* followers, that's a variability of 10 -- not bad, considering each +1 to Leadership gives about 120 new followers. Also, it's montonically increasing: you never lose followers at any given level by gaining Leadership score.

In your system, there's great variability between the level of the highest-level follower. In the standard system, there's almost none. Your system is slightly more difficult to use, but the level of the most powerful follower changes in an essentially random manner (in a particular, well-defined sense).

* For F at least 2. Small cases obviously don't interest us here. Notation: ceil = ceiling, the "round up" function; floor is the "round down" function; lg = base-2 logarithm. lg x is about 3 times the number of digits in x -- that is, it's a small number. % is the modulo operator; x % 2 is 0 for x even and 1 for x odd.

Yes I see exactly what you mean now. Time to bust in those Sub-Cohort rules. ;)
 

Zoatebix

Working on it
Perhaps an easier and more predictable way of generating a cadre of lieutenants would be to work down from the Cohort - or even replace the single Cohort with some group of multiple lieutenants of equivalent encounter level?
 
Last edited:

Hey GQuail mate! :)

GQuail said:
ZING! :>

Without going off-topic, I think that Mr Jacobs replied plenty of times in that thread,

He posted a few times, but he didn't 'reply', if you appreciate the distinction.

GQuail said:
including on the most recent page where he says what his preferred technique for statting the beasties in question would have been (CR20ish and CR30ish versions) but also said something of why that didn't happen.

He posted some excuses bereft of logic (each of which was easily rebuked). In fact at one point he even admits that it makes more sense for the Demon Princes to be more powerful than they were portrayed in the book because they rule planar layers!

GQuail said:
Whether or not you agree with him, perhaps we should be staying clear of statements like the bolded one, which only lead to chaos.

GQuail mate, you don't know about me and online debates, because I am usually pretty timid around these parts and its been a year or two since I have had to really 'school' anyone on ENWorld. Suffice to say I stand by my comments and if anyone wants to make anything of it they know where to find me. My sig ain't just for show you know. ;)

As I said, I have already posted my comments on the matter in the other thread and I am happy to leave it at that. My attack was not against Mr. Jacobs of whom I have the utmost respect (I love the Demonomicon articles), nor was it even against the Hordes of the Abyss book, which I am sure is very good. My argument was specifically against the reasoning for making the Demon Lords as weak as they did - and I am far from alone in my (constructive) criticism of it.

GQuail said:
Re: your leadership rules: I think that removing Epic Leadership is probably a good idea, but I'm not sure about your alternate way of working out followers. Changing to rounding down is a good idea, since that's the standard D&D maths idea: but adding on all these extra "rounded" followers seems a bit odd. I don't think they're going to be high enough level to really "matter" to the kind of challenges the Immortals will be facing: your originale xample had a ECL 26 as his highest follower, but an ECL 46 cohort, so he must be at least ECL 48 himself. Frankly, will the difference in effectiveness between ECL 18 and 28 followers make a damn bit of difference in game for that character? Is it worth making a player go through this extra work in handling all these followers when the in-game benefit is relatively minor?

It does, as you say, grant them a better "middle management" for their minions. If you're going to play the sort of immortals who will have Inevitables/Slaadi/Demons/Guardinals/whatever on command, you're going to need some bigger slots for followers. It certainly isn't unbalancing IMHO.

Thats okay, I already had Sub-Cohort rules worked out (originally as optional rules), which are easily implemented as standard. ;)

GQuail said:
Now I@ve made my pre-order,, the excitement at getting my hands on your latest creation is mounting. It's almost enough to get a Scotsman through the fact he still hasn't got his Community Supporter status back, and the endless World Cup on the news.... ;-)

Cheer up, England might lose. :p
 

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