Immortals Handbook: Gods & Monsters 5E Early Preview (Feedback encouraged)

[Upper_Krust]

No worries. It is similar, that is why a I agree a change will prevent some confussion.

I appreciate the heads up.

I get the idea, but it is not a problem I personally feel I need a general rule on.

To be clear, I am saying a monster should have a method to overcome the PCs resistance / immunity to main attack. Not all attacks. If a monsters threat level depends on its fire attacks, it should have a method to ensure that damage gets through, generally speaking. It seems you agree as you also gave the dragon a method to overcome fire immunity and resistance.

I think by gradually stripping away the layers of immunity/resistance, they retain a purpose but we escalate and speed up the fight as it progresses. I quite like the idea.

It is a strange thing when your talking immortal levels I agree. I was looking at this from a mortal perspective as this is something mortal PCs could tackle.

The damage really ramps up VERY quickly for these Immortal monsters and gods. I have to be very careful, Greater Gods dropping 280d6 spells for instance.

I am handling it a different way in my immortals game. An immortal of a higher tier downgrades a creatures resistance or immunity by one step for each tier it is above. So a greater god ignores the resistances of an intermediate god and the immunities of lesser god.

That's not bad, but I think gods should be ambassadors of their portfolios. Zeus might overwhelm your electricity resistance but if (for whatever reason) he casts fireball; it shouldn't ignore the fire immunity of a Lesser God of Fire.

I wouldn't try to compare yourself to the MM.

Its always interesting to contrast, but really the only official balancing I use is the DMG damage guide by CR.

And I am less interested in DPR because...

...it is weak sauce to a level 20 fighter with 200+ hit points. The breath weapon should be kickass deadly IMO.

By my reckoning a CR 20 encounter is a Moderate encounter for a party of four epic level characters (17-20th).

Also as noted under my GM Notes/Tactics section, I would expect this dragon to be dropping one epic level character every 2 rounds (if it concentrated on one).

So for simply being CR 20 I don't necessarily want my dragon's breath weapon to be "deadly".

At CR 20 it would be a Deadly encounter for a group of four PCs in and around Levels 10-12 ish, or if I wanted a Deadly encounter for a 20th-level party then have them fight two of my Dragons (which should be around a CR 28 encounter).

Now, I agree you get there with your bloodied mechanic, which is awesome,

;-)

but as I have said before I have issues that mechanic (which I won't go into here). I think it works with your design holistically, I just don't like that it relies on your bloodied mechanic.

I just like the idea that you keep upping the stakes whether that is with my "Resistance is Futile" mechanic., my suggested Bloodied mechanic (at half hp) or the Mythic mechanic (at zero hp).

Your welcome. I enjoy the discussion.

Me too buddy. Keep holding my feet to the coals.

 

[dave2008]

Your dragon's base damage is 120 (I miscounted it as 110 last night). I don't factor Legendary Abilities though so I removed that for the purpose of this argument - both of us have a tail attack, yours deals 8 more damage.

We have had this discussion before, we don't see eye to eye on this one, so I don't feel the need to address again.

Incidentally at CR 26 your dragon should be dealing 81% more damage, not just 30%.

No really, but that is not a rabbit hole I am interested in going down.

But the exact mechanics of the beam attack recharge confuses me.

You have it basically right. It was an experiment I was working through with another forum user on how to give the dragon agency (not a random recharge), but not have it completely spam its breath weapon. It could use a tweak in the next redesign (like my 5th or so dragon redesign). The intent is that it can breath every 3 rounds, if it wants too free, but you are correct that it doesn't exactly do that currently. I was so focused on the 3 round CR paradigm I forgot about round 4!

Also I am not counting that extra 2d10/2d10 blast echo since it doesn't hit the original target. That's a false inflation of the original damage.

The intent was to included the initial target, it was worded poorly. That damage should be included.

So before factoring Legendary Abilities your dragon has a DPR of 142 (Beam + Melee + Melee) over 3 rounds. But if it goes Beam + Melee + Recharge + Beam then the DPR is 123 over 4 rounds. Contrasted with my dragons DPR of 139 over 3 rounds.

As noted the intent is 185 DPR over 3 rounds, just needs to be cleaned up. Thanks for the feedback, I missed a few things in the heat of design!

 

[dave2008]

I like the idea of extra detrimental effects on badly failed saves and the damage is still balanced.

I don't like the idea that everything at epic needs to be dealing 50% Force Damage (and I did the exact same thing in 3.5 with everything dealing half divine damage - so I know exactly where you are coming from). I do think this new idea of mine...lets call it "Resistance is Futile" is a bit more interesting and again (as with the Bloodied mechanic) UPS THE ANTE as the fight progresses, meaning fights are no longer linear.

Yes, my ancient dragon is not intended for immortal battles. As I mentioned in my other post I clean up the issue of resistances & immunities with my immortal rules very simply.

 

[dave2008]

I appreciate the heads up.

Welcome!

I think by gradually stripping away the layers of immunity/resistance, they retain a purpose but we escalate and speed up the fight as it progresses. I quite like the idea.

Me too (for immortal/epic).

The damage really ramps up VERY quickly for these Immortal monsters and gods. I have to be very careful, Greater Gods dropping 280d6 spells for instance.

Yes, currently (it is constantly changing) my greater gods are doing about 4,000 average damage on a basic attack with special attacks doing more, sometimes much more.

That's not bad, but I think gods should be ambassadors of their portfolios. Zeus might overwhelm your electricity resistance but if (for whatever reason) he casts fireball; it shouldn't ignore the fire immunity of a Lesser God of Fire.

That is a great idea and very flavorful. That is not how I am doing it currently as I am kinda/sorta updated the BECMI "Immortals" rules. All gods have Authority of either Matter, Energy, Time, Thought, or Entropy.

Portfolios are mortal concepts of how they understand the gods and their Authority. I go back and forth on how much I want to involve "portfolios." The could be nothing, they could be the immortal equivalent of skills, they could influence your power options (or an expression of them), the could only be relevant when interacting with mortals, etc. I can't decide!

Its always interesting to contrast, but really the only official balancing I use is the DMG damage guide by CR.

I just like the idea that you keep upping the stakes whether that is with my "Resistance is Futile" mechanic., my suggested Bloodied mechanic (at half hp) or the Mythic mechanic (at zero hp).

I go back and forth to be honest. I one point I went heavy in to this idea with my immortal rules, but I have back tracked some. It was becoming to much design work (remember I don't like universal mechanics ) and I personally find that style hard to DM. They less I have to remember the better!

Me too buddy. Keep holding my feet to the coals.

Will do, and you as well I hope!

 

[Upper_Krust]

We have had this discussion before, we don't see eye to eye on this one, so I don't feel the need to address again.

No worries.

No really, but that is not a rabbit hole I am interested in going down.

You have it basically right. It was an experiment I was working through with another forum user on how to give the dragon agency (not a random recharge), but not have it completely spam its breath weapon. It could use a tweak in the next redesign (like my 5th or so dragon redesign). The intent is that it can breath every 3 rounds, if it wants too free, but you are correct that it doesn't exactly do that currently. I was so focused on the 3 round CR paradigm I forgot about round 4!

Fair enough. Although not sure why you don't just use the recharge mechanic as is and give the dragon a Legendary Action (cost 2) to allow it another recharge roll (assuming it fails that round).

One idea for Dragon Breath might be to give it a set amount (for the sake of argument lets say 30d6) and it regains 10d6 per round.

R1, Uses 30d6
R2. Recharges 10d6 (can either use this or delay)
R3 Recharges another 10d6 etc.

Then again, I don't think that is an improvement on the default Recharge mechanic.

The intent was to included the initial target, it was worded poorly. That damage should be included.

Ah okay.

As noted the intent is 185 DPR over 3 rounds, just needs to be cleaned up. Thanks for the feedback, I missed a few things in the heat of design!

Happens to the best of us buddy.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Yes, my ancient dragon is not intended for immortal battles. As I mentioned in my other post I clean up the issue of resistances & immunities with my immortal rules very simply.

I like your beam breath weapon, gives me Shin-Godzilla vibes.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Welcome!

Me too (for immortal/epic).

Yes, currently (it is constantly changing) my greater gods are doing about 4,000 average damage on a basic attack with special attacks doing more, sometimes much more.

As I recall aren't your Greater Gods about CR 50-60 or something like that?

Mine are a lot lower CR (albeit my CR's are a bit condensed). With regards immortal advancement I didn't want to fall into the trap of making the gaps in between the tiers of divinity too big because it just destroys interaction. If epic mortals can take on Demon Princes then a party of Demigods should be able to take on Zeus. Not necessarily winning on the gods home plane though.

That is a great idea and very flavorful. That is not how I am doing it currently as I am kinda/sorta updated the BECMI "Immortals" rules. All gods have Authority of either Matter, Energy, Time, Thought, or Entropy.

I keep that for the Sidereals.

Portfolios are mortal concepts of how they understand the gods and their Authority. I go back and forth on how much I want to involve "portfolios." The could be nothing, they could be the immortal equivalent of skills, they could influence your power options (or an expression of them), the could only be relevant when interacting with mortals, etc. I can't decide!

I go back and forth to be honest. I one point I went heavy in to this idea with my immortal rules, but I have back tracked some. It was becoming to much design work (remember I don't like universal mechanics ) and I personally find that style hard to DM. They less I have to remember the better!

Will do, and you as well I hope!

I'm going extremely rules-lite this time and I think it makes it playable for non-Masochists/Math Wizards. I think the 3.5E epic rules (and my Immortal extensions) just had too many variables and working parts. This time I have virtually all the same features but its just SO much simpler - probably because 5E is much simpler: Levels are capped, Ability Scores are capped and lots of other stuff - its just easier to design for.

 

[dave2008]

Fair enough. Although not sure why you don't just use the recharge mechanic as is...

I did in the first 4 versions The whole point of this version was to take away the random aspect. And...

and give the dragon a Legendary Action (cost 2) to allow it another recharge roll (assuming it fails that round).

At one point I had a Legendary Action that cost 3 actions to recharged the breath weapon. It breaks the math currently, but maybe I can find a way to make it work.

One idea for Dragon Breath might be to give it a set amount (for the sake of argument lets say 30d6) and it regains 10d6 per round.

R1, Uses 30d6
R2. Recharges 10d6 (can either use this or delay)
R3 Recharges another 10d6 etc.

Then again, I don't think that is an improvement on the default Recharge mechanic.

That is an interesting idea. Probably to fussy, but it achieves the basic idea I'm going for really well. To me, it is better than a random roll. I will think about using the concept - thanks!

 

[dave2008]

As I recall aren't your Greater Gods about CR 50-60 or something like that?

They were 35-40 when I was doing a more direct 5e system. I am doing something different now and they don't really have a CR. Their avatar's have a CR, but their true forms do not, because...

Mine are a lot lower CR (albeit my CR's are a bit condensed). With regards immortal advancement I didn't want to fall into the trap of making the gaps in between the tiers of divinity too big because it just destroys interaction. If epic mortals can take on Demon Princes then a party of Demigods should be able to take on Zeus. Not necessarily winning on the gods home plane though.

Epic mortals can't really hang with the gods (or demon princes) that I am making. Mortals could challenge a demigod, but that is about it. I am really creating a separate game for immortals only (mostly) play.

I'm going extremely rules-lite this time and I think it makes it playable for non-Masochists/Math Wizards. I think the 3.5E epic rules (and my Immortal extensions) just had too many variables and working parts. This time I have virtually all the same features but its just SO much simpler - probably because 5E is much simpler: Levels are capped, Ability Scores are capped and lots of other stuff - its just easier to design for.

I admit I am struggling with complexity. I keep trying to cut the fat and keep it simple, but it creeps back in from time to time.

 

[Upper_Krust]

I did in the first 4 versions The whole point of this version was to take away the random aspect. And...

At one point I had a Legendary Action that cost 3 actions to recharged the breath weapon. It breaks the math currently, but maybe I can find a way to make it work.

That is an interesting idea. Probably to fussy, but it achieves the basic idea I'm going for really well. To me, it is better than a random roll. I will think about using the concept - thanks!

I think what I will do is drop the bite down to 4d10 and then I could up the breath weapon to 10d10 (cone)/20d10 (line).