Immortals Handbook - Grimoire (Artifacts, Epic Magic discussion)

[Kerrick]

Do you mean where in the core rules or where in Ascension? I think it also says it in te Epic Level Handbook.

Page 23 of the ELH.

Ah, that would explain why I can't recall seeing it - I don't have the ELH.

The DMG page in 3.5 is 199, specifically the section on "Magic Items as Gear."

Yeah, right in that section between PrCs and epic stuff that I always skip over. I don't think I've ever read this part, probably because it's so easy to miss.

Paradox is right, though - there are no hard and fast rules for limiting items you can get; it just basically says "You can apply whatever limit you feel is right." and uses one-quarter total wealth as an example.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

1/4, from what I have seen from all manner of 20th level+ games, is about right. Anyone spending too much on one piece of equipment is just asking for it to be sundered/stolen/disjoined/etc.
That, and someone loading up one really strong item probably doesn't have the cash for the other 'essentials', like Perma-Mindblank/deathward/Trueseeing/etc. (although once the epic-level arms race reaches this point, the list of stuff that can hurt the party becomes two things: A Demilich, and, my personal favorite, A Hecatonchieres with 100 Vorpal blades. )

 

[Kerrick]

1/4, from what I have seen from all manner of 20th level+ games, is about right. Anyone spending too much on one piece of equipment is just asking for it to be sundered/stolen/disjoined/etc.

Yeah, I'm thinking 1/4 is about right too, from the work I'm doing now. 1/3 is pretty close (maybe a bit closer) - I think the true balance point probably lies somewhere in between, right around 30%.

The problem with scrapping the x10 multiplier is that the projected wealth tables suggest you will have +57 armour and +40 weapons at 40th-level. That sort of rapid inflation just destroys the game balance.

Just out of curiosity, UK, what do you think is reasonable for a 40th-level character to be able to afford, in terms of armor/weapons? I've got an idea, and I think it'll work, but I want to get your opinion without influencing your thinking first.

 

[Pssthpok]

Does anyone else find it unrealistic that level/HD implies wealth at all?
I think that's strange, and outside of building characters at high level I don't think level and wealth should be related at all.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Just out of curiosity, UK, what do you think is reasonable for a 40th-level character to be able to afford, in terms of armor/weapons? I've got an idea, and I think it'll work, but I want to get your opinion without influencing your thinking first.

I think they could afford any non-epic equipment they wanted, they can only use one per slot anyway (epic feats aside) so let them buy what they want.

If you are talking about epic items then I think my method in Ascension gives perfect results - from a balance perspective that is.

At 40th-level you could have +20* Armour, a +20* Shield, a +14* weapon and a +20 stat boosting item.

*Total number of bonuses.

So my method seems to suggest about 16 million worth of items at 40th-level.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Pssthpok mate!

Does anyone else find it unrealistic that level/HD implies wealth at all?

I think that's strange, and outside of building characters at high level I don't think level and wealth should be related at all.

I under stand the need for such a mechanic, but philosophically its nothing more than an abstraction.

However in a crazy way it makes sense. Imagine the worlds richest man had about 5.3 billion GP. He could buy some really sick magic items (under the official rules) but chances are someone more powerful would just kill him for his wealth/equipment. So if power and wealth are to go together, in game terms I think that has to be physical power or even mechanical influence - so such a character would tend to be of an experience level commensurate to their wealth - so maybe Gary Gygax had it right all along and we should treat gold pieces as experience points.

 

[Kerrick]

If you are talking about epic items then I think my method in Ascension gives perfect results - from a balance perspective that is.

At 40th-level you could have +20* Armour, a +20* Shield, a +14* weapon and a +20 stat boosting item.

*Total number of bonuses.

Yeah, I meant epic items. I'm coming up with +17 armor/+12 weapon, or +14/+11, depending on which method I use. I can get +20/+14, but it's an off-method (I'm working with several variables here, including the pricing formulae for weapons/armor and items being 1/4 or 1/3 of total wealth, and I'm working off the revised wealth progression). I haven't gotten to stat-boosting items yet - I wanted to try this out with armor/weapons first, since they're the easiest to work with.

So my method seems to suggest about 16 million worth of items at 40th-level.

Yeah, but you're also exceeding the wealth for a 40th-level PC - they get 14 million, not 16.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Kerrick mate!

Yeah, I meant epic items. I'm coming up with +17 armor/+12 weapon, or +14/+11, depending on which method I use. I can get +20/+14, but it's an off-method (I'm working with several variables here, including the pricing formulae for weapons/armor and items being 1/4 or 1/3 of total wealth, and I'm working off the revised wealth progression).

Whose revised progression? If its mine I switched back to core progression a while ago.

I haven't gotten to stat-boosting items yet - I wanted to try this out with armor/weapons first, since they're the easiest to work with.

Well epic items are usually bonus squared x 10,000 (in which case use ECL divided by 2) or bonus squared x 20,000 (in which case use ECL divided by 2.8)

Yeah, but you're also exceeding the wealth for a 40th-level PC - they get 14 million, not 16.

After 40th my formula balances perfectly, before 40th you might want to use the actual epic wealth tables.

 

[Kerrick]

Whose revised progression? If its mine I switched back to core progression a while ago.

Mine. It actually hews closer to the original than yours did. Once I get everything finalized, I'll post it somewhere. I'm pretty close, I think; I have to adjust the progression slightly and recheck the levels and such, because a +11 weapon at L40 is a bit low.

Well epic items are usually bonus squared x 10,000 (in which case use ECL divided by 2) or bonus squared x 20,000 (in which case use ECL divided by 2.8)

Ah, I see. I didn't think it was coincidence that the armor/weapon bonuses were half the level.

After 40th my formula balances perfectly, before 40th you might want to use the actual epic wealth tables.

As in, just let give them what they can afford? *nods*

I think after 40th you can pretty much toss out the tables anyway - you're getting into dozens of millions of gp, and at that level of power, a simple formula would work better - they can make or afford whatever they want, just about. After 50th there isn't much in the book they can't afford (maybe those ridiculous 8 million gp items), so... yeah.

Edit: I think the reason your formula won't work pre-40th level is because the wealth progression doesn't follow any kind of even progression - pre-20th, the numbers are all over the chart, and even post-20th, the wealth increase is wonky - it goes (starting at 22nd) 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 7, 7, 7, 9, 9, 11, 11, 13, 13.

With the revised tables I came up with, you can apply a formula (not quite the same one) at ALL levels and have it come reasonably close to what the PCs can actually afford. For instance: at L1-10, armor is level x3, and weapons are level x 3.5 (round up); 10th-40th, it changes to 2.5 and 3; post-40 it decreases again; I tried +30 armor/weapon, and I got 68th level for bonus^2 x 1000 and 84th for bonus^2 x 2000, so I'd apply a straight 2.25 for armor and 2.75 for weapons and just use that from 40th on.

 

[Kerrick]

Okay, so I played around with some things. I know I shouldn't have done this, but I changed several different variables at once, instead of changing one thing at a time. From a troubleshooting point of view (and this is really what it is - trying to "fix" the systen), you should try one thing at a time, and if that doesn't work, reset it and try something else, but I did it differently this time, for whatever reason.

I'm working off a new set of wealth tables I devised, which can be found here. I reverse-engingeered the existing system and revised the progression, turning it into a flatter, more even climb. Best of all, since it uses a standardized formula, I can figure out the startig gold for any level in under a minute.

I also tried an idea someone on the Wizards boards had - once the item's bonus becomes "epic" (i.e., exceeds normal limits), instead of applying a straight x10 multiplier, you apply a "graded multiplier" (my term): x2, then x3 for the next highest, 4, etc. all the way up to x10, where it remains. I actually modified it to x1 for the first bonus (in this case, +6), then x1.5 for +7, x2 for +8, x3 for +9, etc., as it results in less of a drastic jump in prices and prevents a huge gap in availability by level.

And finally, I tried two different pricing caps for buying items - the first is that no item can exceed 1/4 starting wealth; the second is 1/3. 1/4 turned out to work better (yeah, go fig, huh?), so the final figures use that.

I know my eyes start to cross when someone posts a bunch of numbers and charts and formulae, so I won't subject you all to it. If anyone's interested in looking over the numbers, you can check out a copy of the Excel file with most of my work, but don't expect any notes. Most of it should be pretty easy to understand from this post anyway.


My goals:

I'm not sure that I really had any goals when I started messing around with this stuff, beyond just playing with the numbers; if I did, I forgot what it was. I know I came up with the variant wealth progression to flatten out the curve and make a system that works at all levels (i.e., it follows an actual formula instead of some made-up numbers), but I'm not really sure why I started messing with magic items, beyond that it was probably related to the artificing system I'm working on. Anyway, I did come up with some goals while I was doing this:

1) To come up with a consolidated pricing system for weapons and armor - that is, I think a +6 weapon bonus should be the same whether it's +6 enhancement (epic) or several lesser items adding up to a +6 market value (non-epic), and the same thing with armor.

2) To find a viable alternative to the x10 epic multiplier. This is a corollary to #1, really - an
alternative to the x10 multiplier enables me to create a consolidated pricing system.


My conclusions:

1) Applying a graded multiplier for epic bonuses works out very well, and eliminates the huge price hike from epic to non-epic. It also works very well for a consolidated pricing system. It has to continue past x10, however, in order to keep pace with increasing wealth, and to keep UK's formula valid. I have not, however, come up with a way to calculate XP costs (I haven't even tried) but if you go with the artificing rules I'm working on, you won't need XP. For those of you who'd prefer to stick with the original system, I'll see what I can come up with.

2) Ability score bonuses are probably just a bit too cheap. The pricing should be bonus^2 x 1500 instead of x 1000. That's just my opinion, however.

3) Skill bonuses should become epic when they exceed +10, not +30. There is no item in the DMG with a skill bonus above +10 (with the possible exception of the robe of eyes, which grants +10 to Search and Spot). Again, my opinion, but the fact that all skill-enhancing item bonuses were halved between 3.0 and 3.5 (and the ring of jumping was reduced to +5) seems to bear this out.

4) At 40th level, you can afford: +16 armor, +16 shield, +13 weapon, and a +16 stat-boosting item, which is around 8.45 million, and which gives you around 3.5 million extra to play around with. Yeah, it's a bit much, I agree. can't figure a way around that.

5) The formulas UK uses helped me to finalize this thing. Like I already mentioned, with the variant progression AND the graded multiplier, you can apply the formula for all levels, 1-infinity:

At levels 1-10, bonus^2x1000 is roughly ECL/3; bonus^2x2000 is about ECL/3.5.

At levels 11-40, bonus^2x1000 is roughly ECL/2.5; bonus^2x2000 is about ECL/3.

After L40, bonus^2x1000 is roughly ECL/2.25; bonus^2x2000 is about ECL/2.75.


Yeah, I was surprised as hell when I tried this too. I came up with the variant wealth progression a few weeks ago, well before I thought about doing this, and I haven't changed it at all, but it wouldn't have worked without the graded multipliers, so it's just a case of a confluence of events working out well.