Immortals Handbook - Grimoire (Artifacts, Epic Magic discussion)

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Kerrick mate!

Mine. It actually hews closer to the original than yours did. Once I get everything finalized, I'll post it somewhere. I'm pretty close, I think; I have to adjust the progression slightly and recheck the levels and such, because a +11 weapon at L40 is a bit low.

Have fun!

Ah, I see. I didn't think it was coincidence that the armor/weapon bonuses were half the level.

Easy peasy that way.

As in, just let give them what they can afford? *nods*

Within reason yes, I'd say one non-epic item of choice per slot.

I think after 40th you can pretty much toss out the tables anyway - you're getting into dozens of millions of gp, and at that level of power, a simple formula would work better - they can make or afford whatever they want, just about. After 50th there isn't much in the book they can't afford (maybe those ridiculous 8 million gp items), so... yeah.

Exactly. There is no way to keep wealth level uniform in a totally free form game. So theres no point balancing equipment power by wealth at those levels (or technically at any level).

Edit: I think the reason your formula won't work pre-40th level is because the wealth progression doesn't follow any kind of even progression - pre-20th, the numbers are all over the chart, and even post-20th, the wealth increase is wonky - it goes (starting at 22nd) 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 7, 7, 7, 9, 9, 11, 11, 13, 13.

The simple reason my formula doesn't work well under 40th is because of the x10 cost multiplier boost to epic items. What I could do is make a second formula for non-epic wealth, but even then the transition gap between 20th and whatever level epic items start becoming standard (30th+...?) will probably still get in the way to muddle things.

With the revised tables I came up with, you can apply a formula (not quite the same one) at ALL levels and have it come reasonably close to what the PCs can actually afford. For instance: at L1-10, armor is level x3, and weapons are level x 3.5 (round up); 10th-40th, it changes to 2.5 and 3; post-40 it decreases again; I tried +30 armor/weapon, and I got 68th level for bonus^2 x 1000 and 84th for bonus^2 x 2000, so I'd apply a straight 2.25 for armor and 2.75 for weapons and just use that from 40th on.

How does this formula of yours account for the x10 cost shift?

 

[Kerrick]

The simple reason my formula doesn't work well under 40th is because of the x10 cost multiplier boost to epic items. What I could do is make a second formula for non-epic wealth, but even then the transition gap between 20th and whatever level epic items start becoming standard (30th+...?) will probably still get in the way to muddle things.

Yeah, there is that too. While it was a good idea in theory, it sucked in execution.

How does this formula of yours account for the x10 cost shift?

There is no x10 cost shift - it's a graded multiplier. Here, let me explain it a little more clearly:

+5 armor/shield/weapon: x1
+6 armor/shield/weapon: x1 (first epic multiplier)
+7 armor/shield/weapon: x1.5
+8 armor/shield/weapon: x2
+9 armor/shield/weapon: x3

etc.

This works the same for ALL magic items - natural armor +6 and up, ability bonuses +7 and up, skill bonuses +20* and up, etc. I haven't quite figured out the XP values, like I said, because I'm working on a skill-based item crafting system that doesn't use XP, and I want to finish that up first. BTW, the +6, +7, etc. listed above are both market value AND enhancement - for purposes of this system, they're interchangeable - a +3 keen holy ghost touch longsword (+7 market value) costs the same as a vanilla +7 longsword (147,000 gp, in this case).

*I"m actually not sure about this one, but I think it's right. With a +20 cap, a +40 item would cost 800,000 gp; with a +30 cap, it'd be 540,000 gp. Some folks on the Wizards boards brought up a good case for +20 over +10, so I'll go with that instead.


I think weapon prices should be reduced to bonus^2 x 1500. I have no real proof at this point, just a vague feeling, but I did some preliminary crunching, and if you drop the weapon prices, you end up with them being ECL/3 (I think; I forgot to write it down) for L1-L10 and ECL/2.75 for L10-L40 as opposed to ECL/2.8, which follows the "-0.25/tier" model. Also, it would reduce the craft DCs for magic weapons; currently, a +20 weapon is DC 211 and takes 2,058 days to make, as opposed to +20 armor (DC 158, 1029 days).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Kerrick dude!

Yeah, there is that too. While it was a good idea in theory, it sucked in execution.

There is no x10 cost shift - it's a graded multiplier. Here, let me explain it a little more clearly:

+5 armor/shield/weapon: x1
+6 armor/shield/weapon: x1 (first epic multiplier)
+7 armor/shield/weapon: x1.5
+8 armor/shield/weapon: x2
+9 armor/shield/weapon: x3

etc.

This works the same for ALL magic items - natural armor +6 and up, ability bonuses +7 and up, skill bonuses +20* and up, etc. I haven't quite figured out the XP values, like I said, because I'm working on a skill-based item crafting system that doesn't use XP, and I want to finish that up first. BTW, the +6, +7, etc. listed above are both market value AND enhancement - for purposes of this system, they're interchangeable - a +3 keen holy ghost touch longsword (+7 market value) costs the same as a vanilla +7 longsword (147,000 gp, in this case).

*I"m actually not sure about this one, but I think it's right. With a +20 cap, a +40 item would cost 800,000 gp; with a +30 cap, it'd be 540,000 gp. Some folks on the Wizards boards brought up a good case for +20 over +10, so I'll go with that instead.

I think weapon prices should be reduced to bonus^2 x 1500. I have no real proof at this point, just a vague feeling, but I did some preliminary crunching, and if you drop the weapon prices, you end up with them being ECL/3 (I think; I forgot to write it down) for L1-L10 and ECL/2.75 for L10-L40 as opposed to ECL/2.8, which follows the "-0.25/tier" model. Also, it would reduce the craft DCs for magic weapons; currently, a +20 weapon is DC 211 and takes 2,058 days to make, as opposed to +20 armor (DC 158, 1029 days).

You don't think maybe its a tad too complicated.

I think you are getting wrapped up in the cost and time to make, just go with the flow...bro.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I explored the idea of a gradually increasing multiplier, but it turns out ugly.

Right now my preferred solution is that epic items receive a x5 cost multiplier, and artifacts receive a x10 cost multiplier. The basic difference being that artifacts are much harder to permanently destroy.

I'm also thinking that an item with more than +20 in bonuses should only be an artifact, not an epic item. But that thought is mostly unformed.

 

[paradox42]

Right now my preferred solution is that epic items receive a x5 cost multiplier, and artifacts receive a x10 cost multiplier. The basic difference being that artifacts are much harder to permanently destroy.

That idea is actually exactly what I use; my "Minor Artifacts" which are really just ELH-style Epic items have a x5 multiplier (though it's worth noting, as it often has been in my Epic game to date, that only items which break the limits on bonuses such as +5 enhancement get their prices multiplied- see the Mantle of Epic SR for an example of one that isn't). Major Artifacts get the full x10, and are the nearly-indestructible sort of item.

I'm also thinking that an item with more than +20 in bonuses should only be an artifact, not an epic item. But that thought is mostly unformed.

That could work well for weapons and armor, but IME skill bonuses are worth a lot less in terms of game power- so those should have a different limit. Also, there are examples of items even in WotC books that grant +6 enhancement bonuses to more than one ability score simultaneously; if you were to make an item granting +6 to four or more scores, would that also be an artifact even though it could be made (by core rules) for under 200,000 gp?

 

[Kerrick]

You don't think maybe its a tad too complicated.

No, not really. It's actually LESS complicated - you don't have to worry about stupid things like, "If I have a +5 keen holy longsword [+8 market value] and I up it to +6 enhancement, what will it cost?" You don't have to deal with the ridiculous price hikes from non-epic to epic (or the level jump in availability). All the prices would be listed on a table - no calculation necessary. I've run the numbers on this, and even posted all my work (there's a link in one of my posts up there) - it works.

BTW, XP is easy, too - it's the market price divided by (25 times the multiplier) - so, for instance, +20 armor is 5.6 million divided by (25*14) is 16,000 XP. As opposed to the old system, where +20 armor (4 million) would be be 50,000 XP.

I think you are getting wrapped up in the cost and time to make...

No, I'm wrapped up in creating a workable system.

I explored the idea of a gradually increasing multiplier, but it turns out ugly.

How so? What kind of multipliers were you using?

I'm also thinking that an item with more than +20 in bonuses should only be an artifact, not an epic item. But that thought is mostly unformed.

For stuff like weapons/armor, amulets of natural armor, and rings of protection, yeah. Those items become affordable long about 40th level, which is where UK and I agree that you can pretty well toss out the wealth guidelines and just assign magic items. For ability bonuses, I'd probably go with +18*; skill bonuses I'd cap around +40ish (that really depends on where you want to put the non-epic cap - I've suggested dropping it to +20).

*You could afford a +18 ability bonus item at 40th level - it's 3.4 million, and 40th level is 13.6 mill. 18 is an odd number, though, so you could conceivably bump it up to +20 for simplicity's sake.

I do like that idea, though - once you exceed the above caps, the prices become absurd, and not many people will be able to make them, let alone afford them. I mean, really - how many +57 market value market value swords are there?

Right now my preferred solution is that epic items receive a x5 cost multiplier, and artifacts receive a x10 cost multiplier. The basic difference being that artifacts are much harder to permanently destroy.

I tried x5, and the level gap (i.e., the level where you could afford an item with the given bonus) was still too large. I agree, though, that artifacts should be harder to destroy - you'd need a greater disjunction (homebrew epic spell), divine intercession, or a specific means of destruction, a la 1E/2E - non-epic spells simply won't hurt them.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Kerrick dude!

No, not really. It's actually LESS complicated - you don't have to worry about stupid things like, "If I have a +5 keen holy longsword [+8 market value] and I up it to +6 enhancement, what will it cost?"

The difference between a +14 weapon and a +8 weapon.

You don't have to deal with the ridiculous price hikes from non-epic to epic (or the level jump in availability). All the prices would be listed on a table - no calculation necessary. I've run the numbers on this, and even posted all my work (there's a link in one of my posts up there) - it works.

Well it just seems to me that you did away with the two systems of the core/epic and added multiple systems based on a table which you now have to look up.

Maybe I just need to study it a bit closer.

BTW, XP is easy, too - it's the market price divided by (25 times the multiplier) - so, for instance, +20 armor is 5.6 million divided by (25*14) is 16,000 XP. As opposed to the old system, where +20 armor (4 million) would be be 50,000 XP.

Given that under the old system the XP cost would have been 160,000 XP for that item (retaining the 1:25 I mean) don't you think you are dropping the actual costs too much?

No, I'm wrapped up in creating a workable system.

Good luck mate.

 

[Kerrick]

The difference between a +14 weapon and a +8 weapon.

Huh? How are you getting +14? It should be +9 - +6 enhancement and +3 market value bonus, and multiply it all by x10 since it's now a +6 weapon. Or do you multiply just the +6 part by 10 and tack on the other +3 normally? See,

On a related note, I've been looking at the idea of merging the market value and enhancement bonuses (+8 having the same price for both), and I'm still not sure which way it should go. With the merged tables, it would make the high-end non-epic market values (say, the +5 keen holy longsword) really really expensive, but this could curb power creep. On the other hand, if you don't merge the tables, it's still fairly easy to figure out how to go from "+5 keen holy longsword [+8 market value]" to "+6 yadda yadda" - you just use the +9 line, but apply the multiplier since it's now an epic item, so you'd be going from 128,000 (the +5 blade) to 648,000 (the +6). That one actually hurts, because it's 520,000 gp and 20,800 XP, as opposed to 264,000 gp (648K - 384K) and 2,640 XP.

Well it just seems to me that you did away with the two systems of the core/epic and added multiple systems based on a table which you now have to look up.

Don't think so... I still use the same formulas for calculating enhancement bonuses - bonus^2 x 1000 or 2000, as applicable - I just added in a graded multiplier instead of a flat multiplier for epic bonuses. The prices are already listed on a table in the DMG; the only thing I'd be changing, really, is adding the XP costs so you wouldn't have to figure them out yourself.

Given that under the old system the XP cost would have been 160,000 XP for that item (retaining the 1:25 I mean) don't you think you are dropping the actual costs too much?

Well see, that's the reason they didn't keep the 1/25 XP cost - it would be nearly impossible to make items that cost that much. Even 50,000 XP is a huge amount - that's a lot of level banking - whereas 16,000 will still hurt, but it'll make it possible to actually craft those really high-end items without going to great lengths to save XP (or find it from another source, like soulgems or whatever). You're already paying through the nose for gp costs (which is actually MORE than the existing system) and time (5,600 days); why should you get raped for XP too?

Good luck mate.

Your optimism is so refreshing.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Kerrick mate!

Huh? How are you getting +14? It should be +9 - +6 enhancement and +3 market value bonus, and multiply it all by x10 since it's now a +6 weapon. Or do you multiply just the +6 part by 10 and tack on the other +3 normally? See,

I think you are confused.

Any combination reach a total of +11 or more is epic. Any individual weapon with a single +6 special ability or +6 (or better) enhancement bonus is epic.

Therefore your initial +8 weapon costs 128,000 GP, whereas the +14 weapon costs 3,920,000 GP...therefore the upgrade costs 3,792,000 GP

On a related note, I've been looking at the idea of merging the market value and enhancement bonuses (+8 having the same price for both), and I'm still not sure which way it should go. With the merged tables, it would make the high-end non-epic market values (say, the +5 keen holy longsword) really really expensive, but this could curb power creep. On the other hand, if you don't merge the tables, it's still fairly easy to figure out how to go from "+5 keen holy longsword [+8 market value]" to "+6 yadda yadda" - you just use the +9 line, but apply the multiplier since it's now an epic item, so you'd be going from 128,000 (the +5 blade) to 648,000 (the +6). That one actually hurts, because it's 520,000 gp and 20,800 XP, as opposed to 264,000 gp (648K - 384K) and 2,640 XP.

I still don't see the big problem with the ELH method?

Don't think so... I still use the same formulas for calculating enhancement bonuses - bonus^2 x 1000 or 2000, as applicable - I just added in a graded multiplier instead of a flat multiplier for epic bonuses. The prices are already listed on a table in the DMG; the only thing I'd be changing, really, is adding the XP costs so you wouldn't have to figure them out yourself.

It still seems like more work to me...but that could just be because I am quite familiar with the ELH.

Well see, that's the reason they didn't keep the 1/25 XP cost - it would be nearly impossible to make items that cost that much. Even 50,000 XP is a huge amount - that's a lot of level banking - whereas 16,000 will still hurt, but it'll make it possible to actually craft those really high-end items without going to great lengths to save XP (or find it from another source, like soulgems or whatever). You're already paying through the nose for gp costs (which is actually MORE than the existing system) and time (5,600 days); why should you get raped for XP too?

Yes but the point is you are not meant to be making those items at 16th-level.

Your optimism is so refreshing.

Glad I can be of help...even if it is only via encouragement.

 

[poilbrun]

I think you are confused.

Any combination reach a total of +11 or more is epic. Any individual weapon with a single +6 special ability or +6 (or better) enhancement bonus is epic.

Therefore your initial +8 weapon costs 128,000 GP, whereas the +14 weapon costs 3,920,000 GP...therefore the upgrade costs 3,792,000 GP

Just thought I'd point out that Kerrick is speaking about a +5 sword with the keen and holy abilities (+3 market modifier), for a total modifier of +8, becoming a +6 sword with the keen and holy abilities (+3 modifier), for a total modifier of +9.

I think it is not that easy to know the price of a weapon with an epic enhancement bonus but with a total modifier lower than +11. For example, how much does the above sword cost (+6 enhancement, +1 keen, +2 holy):
- 162,000 GP? That's the price of a non-epic +9 weapon
- 1,620,000 GP? That's the price of an epic +9 weapon
- 738,000 GP? That's the price of an epic +6 weapon (720,000 GP) plus the price of a +3 non-epic weapon (18,000 GP)

I'd go with the third one, epic price for the epic part of the sword (in this case the enhancement bonus), non-epic price for the non-epic part (in this case the added abilities). But then it begs the following question: can you have a +1 longsword with an ability valued at +6 or even much higher (depending on the highest-valued ability you will have in Grimoire ).