Immortals Handbook - Grimoire (Artifacts, Epic Magic discussion)

[Kerrick]

An Empowered x30 Meteor Swarm would do a total of 1,534,008d6 bludgeoing damage (1.5^30 * 4 * 2d6) and 4,602,025d6 (1.5^30 * 4 * 6d6) fire damage.

It would also be a 69th level spell, which means you'd need to be around 200th level to cast it. I haven't really been keeping up with things, but I think that something with CR 200 would be able to shrug one of those off. How does this (and the other spells) compare to the DDT rule?

An Empowered x30 Energy Drain would inflict 383,502d4 (1.5^30 * 2d4) negative levels upon a successful ranged touch attack with no saving throw.

This, OTOH... wow. I don't know anything that could shake off that much damage.

An Empowered x30 Power Word Kill would instantly slay any creature with 19,175,105 hit points or less (1.5^30 * 100) with no saving throw.

Dude, you can't empower power word: kill - it's not a variable effect.

An Empowered x50 Meteor Swarm would do a total of 5,100,972,001d6 bludgeoning damage (1.5^50 * 4 * 2d6) and 15,302,916,005d6 fire damage (1.5^50 * 4 * 6d6).

I don't think there's anything out there that could cast a 209th level spell.

 

[EarthSeraphEdna]

It would also be a 69th level spell, which means you'd need to be around 200th level to cast it. I haven't really been keeping up with things, but I think that something with CR 200 would be able to shrug one of those off. How does this (and the other spells) compare to the DDT rule?

Consider that an entry-level ECL 480 First One with 240d100 HD will have around 700,000-2,000,000 hp. He could purchase Automatic Metamagic Capacity x60 with his base feat progression from his HD alone, not even taking into account the Multifaceted divine ability.

1,534,008d6 bludgeoning + 4,602,025d6 fire (average 5,369,028 bludgeoning + 16,107,087 fire) is enough to one-shot him completely, even if he were immune to fire damage and had DR 3,000,000/—.

On the other hand, an Empowered x30 Meteor Swarm using the DDT rule would only deal a pathetic 128d6 bludgeoning + 384d6 fire (average 448 bludgeoning + 1344 fire), barely enough to scratch a First One. Hell, if you want to take things in extremis, an Empowered x1000 Meteor Swarm using the DDT rule would still deal only 4008d6 bludgeoning + 12,024d6 fire (average 14,028 bludgeoning + 42,084 fire). That's still not much considering a First One's massive hp total.

So the problem is, if we use the standard DDT rule with Empowering, offensive spells will be completely worthless. On the other hand, if we use the DDQ rule with Empowering, offensive spells will nearly always one-shot the target if they hit. We need to find a good balance between these two extremes.

This, OTOH... wow. I don't know anything that could shake off that much damage.

At that level, it's quite easy to get yourself immunity to energy drain and negative levels. Then again, there are immunity-trumping abilities and portfolios... I thought one-upmanship with absolutes was supposed to be minimized?

Dude, you can't empower power word: kill - it's not a variable effect.

I see. I didn't catch that part with regards to the wording of Empower Spell.

 

[Kerrick]

At that level, it's quite easy to get yourself immunity to energy drain and negative levels. Then again, there are immunity-trumping abilities and portfolios... I thought one-upmanship with absolutes was supposed to be minimized?

If you get rid of absolutes, it is. I was going to mention immunity to negative levels (death ward), but UK's pretty well gotten rid of immunities entirely. I've also gone that route - spells like death ward grant a +10 bonus to Fort saves vs. negative energy. The problem here, though, is that without immunity, that spell would also one-shot-kill the target.

So the problem is, if we use the standard DDT rule with Empowering, offensive spells will be completely worthless. On the other hand, if we use the DDT rule with Empowering, offensive spells will nearly always one-shot the target if they hit. We need to find a good balance between these two extremes.

Long, long ago, I posited that stacking metamagics should have a reduced cost for each instance of the feat past the first. That is, empower x4 would add 2+1+1+1 = 5 levels instead of 8. This would reduce the overall level of the x30 empowered meteor swarm to 40th, with a CL of around 111th. I'm not sure of the CR/EL conversions, but would that be an effective spell at that level, if we used DDT?

 

[EarthSeraphEdna]

I think we may already have our work cut out for us with regards to using the DDQ rule for Extend Spell and Widen Spell:

When applying multipliers to real-world values (such as weight or distance), normal rules of math apply instead. A creature whose size doubles (thus multiplying its weight by 8) and then is turned to stone (which would multiply its weight by a factor of roughly 3) now weighs about 24 times normal, not 10 times normal. Similarly, a blinded creature attempting to negotiate difficult terrain would count each square as 4 squares (doubling the cost twice, for a total multiplier of ×4), rather than as 3 squares (adding 100% twice).

So the DDQ rule already applies to Extend Spell and Widen Spell. Extend Spell gives you ×2 duration for +1 spell level, while Widen Spell gives you ×2 range values for +3 spell levels.

Let's use blasphemy/dictum/holy word/word of chaos as our example spell, which has the potential to annihilate all creatures that do not share the specified alignment with HDs of [Caster Level - 10] or lower within a 40-foot radius. To blasphemy/dictum/holy word/word of chaos an earth-sized planet (diameter of 41,804,462 feet) while standing on its surface, one would need to Widen it ×20 for a radius of 41,943,040 and a spell level of 67.

The Milky Way galaxy is 100,000 light years or 587,862,537,318,361,000 feet or 3,103,914,197,040,946,080,000 feet in diameter. To blasphemy/dictum/holy word/word of chaosn that from even its edge, you would need to Widen it ×67 for a radius of 5,902,958,103,587,056,517,120 feet and a spell level of 208.

Does that seem right to you?

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Sounds about right, but then a discrepancy emerges between widen/extend and empower/twin.
What if there were epic metamagic feats for handleing epic magic the same way there are divine abilities for altering [Effects] and divine auras?
Like a Transcendant Spell feat that made all your spells deal D100 damage?
Or a Universal Scale Spell feat that made your spell's area change from whatever base unit of measure it used to use Universes as it's base unit? (So a fireball would become a 20-Universe radius spread)
These could be priced as feats with high prerequisites or separate divine (or higher) abilities.
Just a thought.

 

[EarthSeraphEdna]

Two things:

1.) What are the limitations to the highest-level spell an immortal can cast? As far as I know, it's currently just limited to how many Automatic Metamagic Capacity feats you have and how high your primary casting stat is (since you need an ability score of 10 + spell level to cast a particular spell). Are you also limited by your caster level (eg. to cast a particular spell, you need a caster level of 2x the spell level)? I haven't been keeping up with Grimoire too much, I'd just like to know the limitations on the highest-level spell any given immortal can cast. Like the highest-level spell a 40 HD Lesser Deity with Caster Level 48 could cast or the highest-level spell a 60 HD Intermediate Deity with Caster Level 72 can cast, assuming they had enough Automatic Metamagic Capacity feats and an adequately-high spellcasting stat.

2.) The formula for spell DCs is really off compared to regular DCs. A good save is usually equal to [2 + 1/2 HD + relevant ability modifier + divine bonus] plus the result of a d20 roll, while DCs are equal to [10 + 1/2 HD + relevant ability modifier + divine bonus]. The DCs for spells, however, use the formula [10 + spell level (NOT including metamagic) + relevant ability modifier + divine bonus]. So an 80 HD Greater Deity with Automatic Metamagic Capacity x60 could cast an Empowered x30 Fireball and everyone would have a 95% chance of making the Reflex save for half damage, but then he could cast a Wail of the Banshee heightened to 69th-level and everyone would have lots of trouble saving against it. Perhaps spell DCs should be revised so that they follow the same save DC formula (the "1/2 HD" one) as regular abilities?

 

[WarDragon]

The spell save DCs do follow the same formula. However, only the highest level spells are really relevant. Even in the example you posted, the fireball would still do half on a passed save, which is a good bit with that many empowerings.

 

[Kerrick]

Let's use Blasphemy/Dictum/Holy Word/Word of Chaos as our example spell, which has the potential to annihilate all creatures that do not share the specified alignment with HDs of [Caster Level - 10] or lower within a 40-foot radius. Let's call it "Align" for short. To Align an earth-sized planet (diameter of 41,804,462 feet) while standing on its surface, one would need to Enlarge it ×20 for a radius of 41,943,040 and a spell level of 67.

Ow... my head hurts. Could you use a smaller example so I can follow along? I'm good with numbers, but I'm not quite sure what you're doing here.

The spell save DCs do follow the same formula. However, only the highest level spells are really relevant.

What if we substituted 1/2 caster level for spell level? That would make the spell's power dependent on the caster, not the spell. On the downside, all spells (except for ones that gain bonuses like Spell Focus) would have the same DC, but it would cut down on bookkeeping. On the upside, low-level spells could still be viable at higher levels - think of casting a burning hands at 10th level; instead of the DC being 10 + 1 + 3 (Int mod) = 14, it would be 10 + 5 + 3 = 18.

Or, you could cap the caster level bonus at twice the spell's level, to prevent spell DCs from getting out of hand - frex, that burning hands would be 10 + 2 (twice the spell level) + 3 = 15. A cone of cold cast by a L20 mage would be 10 + 10 + 3 = 23 instead of 10 + 20 + 3 = 33. This would give low-level spells a slight boost without totally overpowering them, and still include the caster level into the equation.

Even in the example you posted, the fireball would still do half on a passed save, which is a good bit with that many empowerings.

Sure, unless they have improved evasion. Which, incidentally, is why I changed that ability to read "On a failed save, you take 1/4 damage."

 

[WarDragon]

If it were changed, I'd prefer to replace the base 10 with half caster level (only at epic levels, of course). I did read a very good argument once for why it wasn't necessary, but I don't recall what it was. 90% sure it was done by Kain Darkwind over at DiceFreaks.

 

[EarthSeraphEdna]

Is there ANY limit to the amount of Automatic Metamagic Capacities you can have? If not, then what's stopping a Demi-deity Wizard 30 from using Multifaceted to get himself as many AMCs as he wants, with the occassional Great Intelligence and Legendary Intelligence.