Immortals Handbook - Grimoire (Artifacts, Epic Magic discussion)

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Hey, heres one of truly omnific proportions - If create big bang is 120th level, then what level spell is needed to create an Akashic Library ?
1000? The thing is I hope there are some level and feat requirements to get to certain magnatudes, or the old Epic Spellcasting cheese returns in its new incarnation. My namesake mage could take Divine Inspiration 10 times as a Stage 1 Demiurge. Using it, he takes the "Multifaceted" power to get 6 feats. Thats 60 on-the-fly feats on top of the feats I get from all my class levels/any bonuses from portfolios. A Level 1000 spell doesn't seem too hard. It would take effort, but with the right combinations of feats/divine abilities, getting 2010 Int and a caster level of 2000 doesn't seem hard. (A Little out of my reach but blowing up universes isn't, so I can't comprehend anything more rediculous than two wizards hurling Universes at each other )
Heck, Time Lords could do it no problem. Infinite Int, plus maybe some sort of Infinite Casterlevel could let em do it. They would just need the feats at that point.
But once you get there, then what?
What I want to know, since I think U_K plans to have a lot of High-tech and divine in grimoire, is at what "Level" does magic meet and/or eclipse divinity? At what point can a spell do what Divine Power, Transcendant/Omnific power, cannot? I think the closest you could get would be to compare a level 1000 time lord, with a level *Insert reduculously large number here (with at least 234 digits)* Wizard.

 

[Kerrick]

Question, UK: are you going with spell slots that you automatically gain (like with 0-9) or with AMC slots that you have to blow a feat on? I've been doing some work on a new, simpler, epic system (I posted the basics in the House Rules forum about a month ago, which means it's probably gone now) and I found that you can gain 1 new spell/3 levels without breaking the system (the same as feats, really...).

And will you be able to put epic spells into artifacts? That's one of my many gripes about the "epic" spell system - you can't put them into magic items or artifacts. WTF?

I was thinking about this earlier today. Ten applications of widen (at +3 levels each) and the ddq rule will increase all dimensions of an effect by 1000. Disintegrate will make a 10 foot cube of matter disappear. Times by 1000 is about 2 miles on a side. Another 1000 and you are talking a 2000 mile cube. A sphere 2500 miles in diameter has about the same volume. Mercury's diameter is about 3000 miles; Mars's is a little over 4000 miles. So 20 doublings would be enough for a small planet, and 22 would disintegrate the earth. Assuming it failed its save. I forget what the saving throw bonus is for a planet.
...
According to this chain of reasoning, anti-magic entire planet's surface should be 30 something levels higher than antimagic shell. So about 40. And destroy planet should be 40 something levels higher than disintegrate. So about 50.

Something else I've been tossing around - I call it the Principle of Bulk Consumption. When you buy things in bulk, you get them cheaper, right? So why shouldn't this apply to metamagic? The rule is this: If you apply the same metamagic feat to a spell more than once, the level adjustment for each application is reduced by 1, to a minimum of 1. So, the spell Cheiro's suggesting, to surround the earth with an antimagic field (using my system)would be: antimagic field (L6); widen x22 (+44) = L50 spell.

I really like the idea of DDQ as opposed to DDT - it makes a lot more sense from a mathematical POV, and it's a lot easier to figure out larger areas and such. I think I'll use that for mine.

One thing I'm having difficulty with is enlarging effects greatly- how do you turn a duration of rounds into a duration of hours, or a 20 foot radius effect into a 2000 foot radius effect? Surely not by piling on 600 iterations of the extend feat, or 99 iterations of the enlarge feat.

You could just make a (possibly epic) feat that increases orders of magnitude as opposed to iteration. For example: Epic Extend Spell (okay, so my names suck ) - for a cost of, say, +5 levels, you can increase the spell's duration by one step, from rounds to minutes to hours to days.

I know why it was put in place, I was reading every article and designer interview I could get my hands on around the time of the 3E release.

Well don't keep us in the dark - speak! Enlighten us, so that we may know the inner workings of the great minds at WotC.

Another idea may be to have Int bonus set as the 'Epic Spell' Prereq. rather than just 10 + spell level it would therefore be 10 + 2/spell level of an epic spell.

I hope by "Int bonus" you really mean "spellcasting ability bonus", otherwise all other casters are boned. And it's ability stat = 10 + spell level, not bonus.

While changing it to ability bonus = 10+1/2 spell level might seem like a good idea, I don't think it is. A L9 spell requires a 19 stat, while a L10 spell would require only 15, feats notwithstanding. What if the character gets ability-drained? He loses the 9th-level spells, but can still cast 10th+? No way, dude. So it requires an absurd ability score to cast a spell to move the galaxy - how often is someone going to cast something like that anyway? Once every million years?

Heres a point to discuss: With the printing of Champions of Ruin (Forgotten Realms evil suppliment), they list that for a +25 increase to the DC, a single factor of the spell, like range, or damage, can be based on Caster Level. (So if have a spell that does 20d6, and add 25 to the DC, it does 20d6/level. )
Is this totally broken, or is it just what the system needed?
I like it, but it screams abuse.

I used it for the level-based system, at +4 levels, and it worked fine. Their version (if what you say is correct) is hideously broken, however. If you set damage to scale by caster level, it should be 1d6/level, not base damage/level.

(xp formula is 100*n*(n+1)/2, where n = spell level - 9)

This is only for spells that use "real doublings" instead of the "two doubles is a triple" kind of D&D math, right?

Is this for XP cost, or the XP require to develop the spell? For that matter, UK - does your system follow the ELH, where developing epic spells requires XP as well as gold?

And finally:

Here are a few things I posted many months ago about balancing the (epic) spells above 9th-level.

I think if you up all those by 10 levels, you'll be closer to the mark. Like I pointed out before, a planet-wide antimagic field is ~L50, and someone else (Cheiro?) said that creating a star would be L70ish; teleporting a city would be around ~30. Assuming it's around 1 mile, we take teleport object (L7), change from target to area (20-ft. radius, +7) and widen x8 (+16, for an radius of 5,120 ft.), we end up with L30.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I read UK's proposal as requiring a key ability of 10 + twice the spell level. So a wizard's level 10 epic spell would require an Intelligence of 30. Level 11 would be 32, and so on. (I'm reading 2/level as meaning 2 per level.)

The xp formula I quote is an additional cost, a surcharge if you like, for casting a spell that uses ddq factors. I think it was just a random idea, not a key piece of the puzzle.

I don't think UK has commented on xp costs to research spells.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

I'm hoping this will jog his memory.

Its possible the Teleport City was based on the surface area rather than the volume.

I'm guessing that the estimates were based on an idea about the relationship between metamagic feats and epic spell levels, and some back-of-the-envelope calculations related to the scale of astronomical phenomena.

Absolutely.

If I'm in the right ballpark he can probably help me narrow it down a bit more.

You seem to 'get' the idea, I am not sure what else needs narrowed down at this stage?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy!

Hey, heres one of truly omnific proportions - If create big bang is 120th level, then what level spell is needed to create an Akashic Library ?
1000?

Infinite...or maybe just 240th.

The thing is I hope there are some level and feat requirements to get to certain magnatudes, or the old Epic Spellcasting cheese returns in its new incarnation. My namesake mage could take Divine Inspiration 10 times as a Stage 1 Demiurge. Using it, he takes the "Multifaceted" power to get 6 feats. Thats 60 on-the-fly feats on top of the feats I get from all my class levels/any bonuses from portfolios. A Level 1000 spell doesn't seem too hard. It would take effort, but with the right combinations of feats/divine abilities, getting 2010 Int and a caster level of 2000 doesn't seem hard. (A Little out of my reach but blowing up universes isn't,

So, just so I understand you straight, you are worried the prereqs are too easy for a min/maxed Demiurge to cast Big Bang.

You know we really do miss the lack of a 'rolleyes' smiley on ENWorld.

so I can't comprehend anything more rediculous than two wizards hurling Universes at each other )

Sounds like an interesting illustration for Grimoire.

Heck, Time Lords could do it no problem. Infinite Int, plus maybe some sort of Infinite Caster level could let em do it. They would just need the feats at that point.

Don't worry about Time Lords being able to cast 120th-level spells.

But once you get there, then what?

Then you realise that you never fairly roleplayed to get to Demiurge in the first place and your character implodes.

What I want to know, since I think U_K plans to have a lot of High-tech and divine in grimoire, is at what "Level" does magic meet and/or eclipse divinity?

I may save some high-tech stuff for the Gods vs. Modern/Future part of Chronicle. It depends how much material I have for the Grimoire.

At what point can a spell do what Divine Power, Transcendant/Omnific power, cannot? I think the closest you could get would be to compare a level 1000 time lord, with a level *Insert reduculously large number here (with at least 234 digits)* Wizard.

Well I'll leave such meanderings to those with more time and inclination at their disposal.

 

[Cheiromancer]

You seem to 'get' the idea, I am not sure what else needs narrowed down at this stage?

The bit about whether 2 metamagic levels = 1 epic spell level, or whether it is 3 to 1 or what. I.e. whether you'd still stick with your estimates, or if you'd want to revise them by 50% or so.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Kerrick matey!

Question, UK: are you going with spell slots that you automatically gain (like with 0-9) or with AMC slots that you have to blow a feat on?

The latter.

I've been doing some work on a new, simpler, epic system (I posted the basics in the House Rules forum about a month ago, which means it's probably gone now) and I found that you can gain 1 new spell/3 levels without breaking the system (the same as feats, really...).

And will you be able to put epic spells into artifacts? That's one of my many gripes about the "epic" spell system - you can't put them into magic items or artifacts. WTF?

Of course. But if there is a cost the caster will have to meet it.

Something else I've been tossing around - I call it the Principle of Bulk Consumption. When you buy things in bulk, you get them cheaper, right? So why shouldn't this apply to metamagic? The rule is this: If you apply the same metamagic feat to a spell more than once, the level adjustment for each application is reduced by 1, to a minimum of 1. So, the spell Cheiro's suggesting, to surround the earth with an antimagic field (using my system)would be: antimagic field (L6); widen x22 (+44) = L50 spell.

The metamagic system balances perfectly scaled as it is. I HATE Improved Metamagic. I strongly advise against using something like this.

I really like the idea of DDQ as opposed to DDT - it makes a lot more sense from a mathematical POV, and it's a lot easier to figure out larger areas and such. I think I'll use that for mine.

Glad I could help.

You could just make a (possibly epic) feat that increases orders of magnitude as opposed to iteration. For example: Epic Extend Spell (okay, so my names suck ) - for a cost of, say, +5 levels, you can increase the spell's duration by one step, from rounds to minutes to hours to days.

Sounds plausible...although it would be +6 levels.

I hope by "Int bonus" you really mean "spellcasting ability bonus", otherwise all other casters are boned. And it's ability stat = 10 + spell level, not bonus.

10 + spell level x2

While changing it to ability bonus = 10+1/2 spell level might seem like a good idea, I don't think it is. A L9 spell requires a 19 stat, while a L10 spell would require only 15, feats notwithstanding. What if the character gets ability-drained? He loses the 9th-level spells, but can still cast 10th+? No way, dude. So it requires an absurd ability score to cast a spell to move the galaxy - how often is someone going to cast something like that anyway? Once every million years?

Spellcasters are not meant to move galaxies unless they are eternals or sidereals of magic.

By my understanding of logistics, 33rd-level should be the highest level character on a planet, 66th-level should be the highest in the galaxy and 99th the highest in the universe. Thats for characters with a lifepan of a century.

Is this for XP cost, or the XP require to develop the spell? For that matter, UK - does your system follow the ELH, where developing epic spells requires XP as well as gold?

I'm contemplating which is best...I don't like the idea that it would cost you gold, but it should cost you something.

And finally:

I think if you up all those by 10 levels, you'll be closer to the mark. Like I pointed out before, a planet-wide antimagic field is ~L50, and someone else (Cheiro?) said that creating a star would be L70ish; teleporting a city would be around ~30. Assuming it's around 1 mile, we take teleport object (L7), change from target to area (20-ft. radius, +7) and widen x8 (+16, for an radius of 5,120 ft.), we end up with L30.

Don't think for a moment that the lose frame work of spell effects by level is any sort of iron clad bible on the matter. Its just me thinking out loud.

 

[Upper_Krust]

The bit about whether 2 metamagic levels = 1 epic spell level,

Where does this come from?

or whether it is 3 to 1 or what. I.e. whether you'd still stick with your estimates, or if you'd want to revise them by 50% or so.

As far as I am concerned its 1:1, unless you have me totally confused with what we are talking about.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Where does this come from?

As far as I am concerned its 1:1, unless you have me totally confused with what we are talking about.

Antimagic shell is a 6th level spell and affects a 10 ft. radius. To cover the earth it needs to be widened 22 times in a row. Each widening is +3 levels. 22 x 3 is 66. 6+66 = 72. That's too much- the benchmark for destroying a planet is 40, not 72. But if only half the +66 modifier were added to the base of 6 we'd get 6 + 33 = 39; almost exactly our target of 40. So I hypothesize that 2 levels of metamagic = 1 level of epic spell.

Disintegrate is a 6th level spell and affects a 10 ft. cube. To destroy the earth it needs to be widened 22 times in a row. Each widening is +3 levels. So the final level would be 72 (again, higher than the target of 50) but we halve the +66 modifier, as before to get 39. This is too low (we want 50) and furthermore is the same as the antimagic planet. It should be 10 levels higher than that spell. So I posit that a planet should get a saving throw against disintegrate. Maybe 20 levels of Heighten Spell needs to be added to the mix in order to overcome this saving throw. This +20 is also halved, of course, since by hypothesis 2 levels of metamagic = 1 level of epic spell. This makes the end result 49, which is pretty nearly what is desired.

So I am halving the level modifier added by metamagic feats. Otherwise my DCs come out way higher than your benchmarks. But even halving them is not enough for spells like move galaxy. So I wondered if perhaps I should have been dividing by 3 instead of 2.

Or would you say that the 1=1 formula is right and thus your benchmarks are too low? That's what we were chatting about the other day; remember when we calculated that teleport city would be a 45th level spell?

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Howdy!

So, just so I understand you straight, you are worried the prereqs are too easy for a min/maxed Demiurge to cast Big Bang.

You know we really do miss the lack of a 'rolleyes' smiley on ENWorld.

Pretty much
If you don't powergaming considderations matter, heck you are probably right. Most epic games that work run on Gentlemen's rules anyhow. (No Hulking Hurlers or Incantatrix or Epic Spellcasting abusers)
It may be best to err on the side of caution, and make the system lean to the weaker end. (Stops, requirements, etc) The DM has the final word on most issues, but not all will say No if they don't know what the player is truely trying to break.
There was an issue, IIRC, where a WoTC offical stated Psycrystals gain HD, and were Psionic creatures. (There may have been debate over this, and the Official was just ending it with a ruling. I have only heard of this ruling, but the Expanded Psionics Handbook seems to back this up) This eventually meant a Psion could take a psycrystal, who took the Psycrystal feat, who took the Psycry... ...and they all use Aid Another on the Psion's Strength Check to Sunder the universe! (of course a DM would just slap a PC who tried this, but it is in the rules)
The only failing of the d20 system is that Math works for, and against the developer.
And now back to our regularly schedualed forum!
Of your several new magic types/schools/etc, I am sure one kind is Chronomancy. Are your other ideas dimentional-based, or more simple things that may have allready been printed, (and no doubt butchered by WoTC) and just redone to be epic? or are they completely new?