immortals handbook

[Impeesa]

Question for the expert: How powerful was Io in previous editions? I just picked up the Draconomicon, and it has a listing of the draconic pantheon putting Io at Intermediate deity. It just struck me as odd that he wouldn't be at least a Greater deity simply by virtue of being a pantheon head..

--Impeesa--

 

[historian]

Hi historian mate!



Thanks for the support mate!



Well there are certain consistencies within the Divinity Templates which facilitated my being able to predict that measure of power.

I don't expect it to be used at that measure of power though.

In the endless philosophising of these related matters (usually with myself) I have been pondering on whether or not to fully eliminate the Cosmic Hierarchy altogether, or rather have them subsume the Time Lord 'classification' of beings.

So after Greater God you would actually have no change for quite a considerable span of power before you would reach Elder One. The reason being that the gulf between mortal and immortal (which I filled with paramortals and quasi-gods) should parallel the gulf between the immortal and the sidereal. Of course that in itself would then require some sort of bridging gap which I would then need to discern anyway. But I think, philosophically at least, my perceptions of the Cosmic Hierarchy are probably better served when distanced somewhat to regular immortals rather than just neatly following them.

...still something for me to ponder upon I suppose.


Incidently I have thought of refering to Slaad as 'Brood'. What do you all think?

This would be like the relationship between the terms Baatezu and 'Devil'. One esoteric, one common.

If I understand, it sounds like you would be doing away with many of the gradations in between Greater God and those beyond. I guess this would mean whittling down the number of template levels in Sidereal and Eternal and perhaps Supernal?

This could make things a little cleaner for the reader, but it doesn't seem to me that the original plan would be too hard to follow, particulalrly given the work that you've done defining CRs and ELs. I guess the benefit of limiting the the number of steps that you have in the ranks is that, there is no ambiguity about what role one of these beings plays in the universe. I'll leave all of this to your judgment, and I'm sure what you come up with will work quite well, even if people don't immediately start putting an 80 quindecillion supernal into their campaigns.

BTW - I think 'Brood' works for Slaad, very logical.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Impeesa mate!

Question for the expert: How powerful was Io in previous editions? I just picked up the Draconomicon, and it has a listing of the draconic pantheon putting Io at Intermediate deity. It just struck me as odd that he wouldn't be at least a Greater deity simply by virtue of being a pantheon head..

Well if you had asked me a few days ago I would have said that under my auspices Io would have been considered an Elder One (by virtue of him being the progenitor of an entire type of creature; whereas Moradin would not necessarily be an Elder God because he is only the progenitor of a subtype of creature).

But there are funny things going on in my head and I am contemplating a bit of a shake up in the area of cosmic deities.

There are certain classes of being that seem way too underpowered. I mean looking at the details in front of me a typical Pantheon would be more powerful than a First One (eg. Time). Philosophically (at least) that doesn't seem right to me.

The dilemmas I now face are: what happens between Greater power and Elder Power; are the powers I have created still fundamentally balanced if I change the hierarchy; do the Time Lords (or above) become so unfeasibly powerful as to not warrant any stats?

So there are questions to be answered my end.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi historian mate!

If I understand, it sounds like you would be doing away with many of the gradations in between Greater God and those beyond.

Well I haven't really decided yet, but I would like to move the Sidereals (Cosmic Gods) into where I currently have the Time Lords (mechanically if not philosophically).

This would create a large gap in between Greater God and Elder One; which is currently more of a progression than a gap (though there are some fundamental changes between the Divine and the Cosmic).

As a very rough guide each increase in power will generally double the power (ie. +2 EL) of the deity. So if a typical Greater God was about CR 180 a typical Elder God would be about CR 260 or thereabouts. If I was to instigate these changes then an Elder God would typically be more like CR 1000.

The reasons for this sort of staggering are to facilitate interaction between the two. You don't want the boost to be too great or too little.

However, the problem therein is that I have integrated some fairly outlandish philosophy into the cosmic gods; its not just progression for its own sake.

I guess this would mean whittling down the number of template levels in Sidereal and Eternal and perhaps Supernal?

Not necessarily. But it does make some Templates even more ridiculous in terms of application.

I mean its one thing to want to learn about the Time Lords but (if I instigate these changes) how many people are actively going to be using Eternal templates with CR bonuses of 10,000+* and thats before we even start discussing Supernals.

*for a relatively weak Time Lord.

This could make things a little cleaner for the reader, but it doesn't seem to me that the original plan would be too hard to follow, particulalrly given the work that you've done defining CRs and ELs.

Defining the CRs is not a problem.

Its simply a case of the philosophy not fitting the mechanics.

I guess the benefit of limiting the the number of steps that you have in the ranks is that, there is no ambiguity about what role one of these beings plays in the universe.

Even now theres no real ambiguity, its simply that the power levels seem too abrupt for what they are trying to describe.

Instead of transcending from the Divine to the Cosmic in the same way we transcend from Mortal to Divine I have mechanically condensed things too much I think.

There should really be a power buffer in the same way we have Disciples; Prophets; Hero-deities and Quasi-deities. Though I have not as yet determined the nature of that buffer.

I'll leave all of this to your judgment, and I'm sure what you come up with will work quite well, even if people don't immediately start putting an 80 quindecillion supernal into their campaigns.

I never expected anyone to use such a thing but I did want to show how robust the design was.

I mean even at the moment, only THE MOST INSANE of campaigns could really use Time Lords (if your players party consists of Ao; Galactus and Goku*). So Supernals are already redundant except from a philosophical point of view (though I would always detail one example just to give people an idea of what it is).

*Super-Saiyan 4 of course

BTW - I think 'Brood' works for Slaad, very logical.

Thanks.

 

[historian]

QUOTE=Upper_Krust]Hi historian mate!



Well I haven't really decided yet, but I would like to move the Sidereals (Cosmic Gods) into where I currently have the Time Lords (mechanically if not philosophically).

This would create a large gap in between Greater God and Elder One; which is currently more of a progression than a gap (though there are some fundamental changes between the Divine and the Cosmic).

As a very rough guide each increase in power will generally double the power (ie. +2 EL) of the deity. So if a typical Greater God was about CR 180 a typical Elder God would be about CR 260 or thereabouts. If I was to instigate these changes then an Elder God would typically be more like CR 1000.

The reasons for this sort of staggering are to facilitate interaction between the two. You don't want the boost to be too great or too little.

However, the problem therein is that I have integrated some fairly outlandish philosophy into the cosmic gods; its not just progression for its own sake.[/QUOTE]


That sounds cool to me, and not at all inconsistent with any intuition or understanding that I have (Elder Gods in relation to Greater Gods that is). Widening the gulf between Greater and Elder would keep any 2 Greater Gods (or a Greater and 4 Lesser) from teaming up on the Elder, not that the Elder couldn't draw on other resources as well, but the wider the spread, the more distinct the Elder seems (notwithstanding any qualitative differences in terms of sources of power, objectives, ethos, etc.) and the less likely "he" is displaced.

Not necessarily. But it does make some Templates even more ridiculous in terms of application.

I mean its one thing to want to learn about the Time Lords but (if I instigate these changes) how many people are actively going to be using Eternal templates with CR bonuses of 10,000+* and thats before we even start discussing Supernals.

*for a relatively weak Time Lord.

It's tough to know, my guess is that most folks aren't quite ready to integrate some of your stronger stuff into the campaign as a legitimate encounter anyway, and to that effect, this won't bother them. For those who may begin a new campaign that is ultra high level, the only thing that may be lost is that they won't be able to use some of the lesser ranked beings that previously would have provided them a challenge pre-change.

In any event, I don't see this as a big problem.

Defining the CRs is not a problem.

Its simply a case of the philosophy not fitting the mechanics

.


Right on.

I never expected anyone to use such a thing but I did want to show how robust the design was.

Heck, I may use it, and robustness is a good thing!

I mean even at the moment, only THE MOST INSANE of campaigns could really use Time Lords (if your players party consists of Ao; Galactus and Goku*). So Supernals are already redundant except from a philosophical point of view (though I would always detail one example just to give people an idea of what it is).

*Super-Saiyan 4 of course

Cool, this means you might have to add a few zeros yet to the CR of the highest-end supernal template , but I think you are doing a great job to include it, it's actually the only complete codification of the RPG/Comic cosmological system that I am aware of.

What can I say Krust, you da' man!

Thanks.

You're welcome.

 

[historian]

QUOTE=Upper_Krust]Hi historian mate!



Well I haven't really decided yet, but I would like to move the Sidereals (Cosmic Gods) into where I currently have the Time Lords (mechanically if not philosophically).

This would create a large gap in between Greater God and Elder One; which is currently more of a progression than a gap (though there are some fundamental changes between the Divine and the Cosmic).

As a very rough guide each increase in power will generally double the power (ie. +2 EL) of the deity. So if a typical Greater God was about CR 180 a typical Elder God would be about CR 260 or thereabouts. If I was to instigate these changes then an Elder God would typically be more like CR 1000.

The reasons for this sort of staggering are to facilitate interaction between the two. You don't want the boost to be too great or too little.

However, the problem therein is that I have integrated some fairly outlandish philosophy into the cosmic gods; its not just progression for its own sake.

That sounds cool to me, and not at all inconsistent with any intuition or understanding that I have (Elder Gods in relation to Greater Gods that is). Widening the gulf between Greater and Elder would keep any 2 Greater Gods (or a Greater and 4 Lesser) from teaming up on the Elder, not that the Elder couldn't draw on other resources as well, but the wider the spread, the more distinct the Elder seems (notwithstanding any qualitative differences in terms of sources of power, objectives, ethos, etc.) and the less likely "he" is displaced.

Not necessarily. But it does make some Templates even more ridiculous in terms of application.

I mean its one thing to want to learn about the Time Lords but (if I instigate these changes) how many people are actively going to be using Eternal templates with CR bonuses of 10,000+* and thats before we even start discussing Supernals.

*for a relatively weak Time Lord.

It's tough to know, my guess is that most folks aren't quite ready to integrate some of your stronger stuff into the campaign as a legitimate encounter anyway, and to that effect, this won't bother them. For those who may begin a new campaign that is ultra high level, the only thing that may be lost is that they won't be able to use some of the lesser ranked beings that previously would have provided them a challenge pre-change.

In any event, I don't see this as a big problem.

Defining the CRs is not a problem.

Its simply a case of the philosophy not fitting the mechanics

Right on.

I never expected anyone to use such a thing but I did want to show how robust the design was.

Heck, I may use it, and robustness is a good thing!

I mean even at the moment, only THE MOST INSANE of campaigns could really use Time Lords (if your players party consists of Ao; Galactus and Goku*). So Supernals are already redundant except from a philosophical point of view (though I would always detail one example just to give people an idea of what it is).

*Super-Saiyan 4 of course

Cool, this means you might have to add a few zeros yet to the CR of the highest-end supernal template , but I think you are doing a great job to include it, it's actually the only complete codification of the RPG/Comic cosmological system that I am aware of.

What can I say Krust, you da' man!

Thanks.

You're welcome.

 

[Alzrius]

Well if you had asked me a few days ago I would have said that under my auspices Io would have been considered an Elder One (by virtue of him being the progenitor of an entire type of creature; whereas Moradin would not necessarily be an Elder God because he is only the progenitor of a subtype of creature).

Not to nitpick, but as I understood it, Moradin did create all dwarves; Laduegur (I know I misspelled that) just corrupted the duergur into their current form. Likewise, Moradin and the other dwarven gods don't consider the derro to be dwarves at all - to them, the derro and their gods are freakish monsters.

But there are funny things going on in my head and I am contemplating a bit of a shake up in the area of cosmic deities.

Speaking strictly from a publishing viewpoint...isn't it realy bad to decide to go back and redesign part of a product just before its finished?

There are certain classes of being that seem way too underpowered. I mean looking at the details in front of me a typical Pantheon would be more powerful than a First One (eg. Time). Philosophically (at least) that doesn't seem right to me.

I can understand both points of this dilemma. I'd say not to agonize over that too much, since even a horde of low-level characters can overwhelm a high-level one...similar principle...though I do see the rationale for wanting a First One to be able to pu the smack down on an entire pantheon.

The dilemmas I now face are: what happens between Greater power and Elder Power; are the powers I have created still fundamentally balanced if I change the hierarchy; do the Time Lords (or above) become so unfeasibly powerful as to not warrant any stats?

Meaning that a lot would have to be recalculated in terms of power for these beings to deal with each other...this is why its bad to realize all this just before putting the book out.

In regards to some beings that are so unbelieveably powerful that they don't/shouldn't need stats...there is a point where it seems to become ridiculous...but there are others who would say that for the gods themselves (like the last two editions did) or for beings like Ao (which is still maintains don't need stats). Basically, I think you've come too far already to worry about whether you're making beings so damn strong that they don't need numbers...you've gone this far, so go the distance!

 

[Yair]

I was just wondering, given the obscenly high CRs and (I presume) high levels, will the IH include guidelines for determining such a tall order of skill checks? Personally, I haven't got a clue what a DC 1,000 Knowledge (Nobility) or Sense Motive would mean, or how it would differ from DC 500 or even DC 50.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

That sounds cool to me, and not at all inconsistent with any intuition or understanding that I have (Elder Gods in relation to Greater Gods that is). Widening the gulf between Greater and Elder would keep any 2 Greater Gods (or a Greater and 4 Lesser) from teaming up on the Elder, not that the Elder couldn't draw on other resources as well, but the wider the spread, the more distinct the Elder seems (notwithstanding any qualitative differences in terms of sources of power, objectives, ethos, etc.) and the less likely "he" is displaced.

Exactly. It was getting to the stage that a single Pantheon could defeat one of the First Ones; which was a bit ludicrous.

Incidently I think I know the outcome of how to solve the dilemma mecahnically*, I just haven't arrived at a reasoning to suit the mechanics yet.

*Essentially you double the power of the steps on the Cosmic scale so that 'on average' one Elder God would be equal to four greater gods instead of two etc. Of course all that in itself throws up other questions to be answered.

It's tough to know, my guess is that most folks aren't quite ready to integrate some of your stronger stuff into the campaign as a legitimate encounter anyway, and to that effect, this won't bother them.

Exactly.

Though I know a few campaigns are running around with Overgod PCs so those would still be worthwhile mechanics for a few.

For those who may begin a new campaign that is ultra high level, the only thing that may be lost is that they won't be able to use some of the lesser ranked beings that previously would have provided them a challenge pre-change.

In any event, I don't see this as a big problem.

Hopefully not.

Heck, I may use it, and robustness is a good thing!

Cool, this means you might have to add a few zeros yet to the CR of the highest-end supernal template , but I think you are doing a great job to include it, it's actually the only complete codification of the RPG/Comic cosmological system that I am aware of.

Thats part of the plan. Certainly the Marvel Universe (and to a lesser extent the DC Universe) has inspired certain ideas of mine, and I have always been of the mind that someone would be able to rate the Marvel Universe using my over-arching cosmology.

What can I say Krust, you da' man!

We'll see. I appreciate the support as ever.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Alzrius mate!

Not to nitpick, but as I understood it, Moradin did create all dwarves; Laduegur (I know I misspelled that) just corrupted the duergur into their current form. Likewise, Moradin and the other dwarven gods don't consider the derro to be dwarves at all - to them, the derro and their gods are freakish monsters.

What I meant was that Dwarves are merely a subtype of Humanoid. If you had been responsible for creating ALL humanoids then I would consider you an Elder God.

Speaking strictly from a publishing viewpoint...isn't it realy bad to decide to go back and redesign part of a product just before its finished?

I don't see it as a redesign, but more akin to a moving of the goal posts.

I can understand both points of this dilemma. I'd say not to agonize over that too much, since even a horde of low-level characters can overwhelm a high-level one...similar principle...though I do see the rationale for wanting a First One to be able to pu the smack down on an entire pantheon.

Exactly.

Meaning that a lot would have to be recalculated in terms of power for these beings to deal with each other...this is why its bad to realize all this just before putting the book out.

Its not the major upheaval you might imagine.

The majority of the book concentrates on Immortals (Demigod to Greater God); beyond that is a lot of uncharted territory (I don't recall any books detailing 'Overgods' before and I go way beyond Overgod). I don't want to make the cosmic beings mere extensions of power, I want to breathe life into them, to give them a purpose for existing.

If the purpose conflicts with the mechanics then its the mechanics that need to be changed. Power without perception is ultimately futile.

In regards to some beings that are so unbelieveably powerful that they don't/shouldn't need stats...there is a point where it seems to become ridiculous...but there are others who would say that for the gods themselves (like the last two editions did) or for beings like Ao (which is still maintains don't need stats). Basically, I think you've come too far already to worry about whether you're making beings so damn strong that they don't need numbers...you've gone this far, so go the distance!