immortals handbook

[Upper_Krust]

Hi BardStephenFox mate!

Unfortunately the boards wouldn't let me in last night - hence the longer than usual delay.

Agreed. The people here are great.

They certainly are, this is a very friendly community.

You just go more out of your way than many of us do.

Well it would be the height of rudeness for me to ignore people asking questions about a book I am writing.

Nope. But my character is rather odd.

Long digression on a character commencing ...

I have 7 levels of Bard, 3 of Rogue, 4 of a home-brew PrC, and now 3 of Druid.

Many people consider multi-class characters to be notably weaker than single class characters.

I'm curious how your group have been finding high-level play?

I have grown this character very organically. Early on, the 4 skill points/level that a Bard gets was not quite enough skill points to do what I wanted, so I multiclassed w/ Rogue for a bit. Once I had the base skills down, I was able to start focusing on a few key skills. Heck, at this point the levels in rogue are a nuisance. However, the group doesn't have another rogue (that player left and we replaced him with a monk) so the trapfinding occasionally becomes useful.

I have an epic feat in the IH that should specifically address the above problem, but I don't want to spoil the surprise at this point.

Over time, he has been trying to moderate his rebelliousness and fierce independence. This became a bit easier when the party actually journeyed to a Sacred place where we could hear part of the Song of Creation. It also allowed me to create a PrC that would reflect what that experience meant for the character. Mucho fun! Being fairly urban, he has had a growing appreciation for the wilds. Obviously, the party Druid and Ranger have helped in this regard, but mostly the Druid. He finally gave in and has sought more balance in his life by taking levels of Druid.

...and is that now the path you hope to tread over the next few levels; Druid? Or is the Prestige Race or (FFG) 'School of' idea next on the agenda?

Coupled with all of this is the fact that early on in the game, we located a strange looking set of bracers and a matching torc. Though he was the first person to caution everyone about touching them, my character was also the first to give in to his curiosity and put them on. Interesting decision. It turns out that the Torc and Bracers are a set of artifacts that have not been seen for 800+ years, when the last Taoiseach disappeared. (See any Celtic themes here?)

Indeed. Incidently the Celtic Pantheon should be the first pantheon I tackle in the 'Immortals Index'.

It seems that the bard is now the Taoiseach and will be responsible for finding and naming the new Ard Righ, preferrably before the armies if darkness conquer everything. Of course, only the most paranoid people see that all these disparate events occurring around the world might be connected and related. Right now, we are nothing more than high-powered conspiracy theorists, so banding everyone together is far from easy. Stephen has a pretty good idea of what he is fighting to protect, both in terms of the "civilized" races and in terms of the rest of the natural world (thanks to the Druid levels), and he is determined to prevent some of the mistakes from previous millenia from happening again. (Such as the slaughter of the fey since they wouldn't choose sides in past conflicts.)

Sounds like big things are afoot.

It has been a long game, and it looks like it will be longer yet. So, I am looking forward to some Epic level goodness. But, there are a lot of aspects to my character that I try to bring out by his class/skill/feat choices. I also try to be somewhat careful to not make him too ineffective. I mean, taking 3 levels of Druid, starting at 14th level, is not an optimized choice. It makes sense for the character, but I work very hard to make sure my choices are not huge burdens for the rest of the party. So, my long term planning for the character is mostly damage control. It is hard to play a somewhat unfocused character when you know your choices are killing some of your class abilities. The rest of my planning is to look at the things my character is experiencing, and thinking, and try to find good matches that are reflected in his choices.

Its difficult to anticipate where your character wants to go, but I think I will have a Prestige Class or two that might interest you.

OK, that was probably way more than anyone wanted to know. But, it has been on my mind lately and this was the trigger for me to let it out somewhat.

Anyway, I have found it far more interesting to grow a character up in levels rather than start at a higher level and go from there.

Absolutely.

I am excited about the Immortals Handbook because I think you will have more choices in there that will be interesting for my character.

I hope so too - I already have visions of your character perhaps gaining and combining the Music and Nature portfolios?

Just incase there are any aspects of the genre I have missed in the Immortals Handbook (I don't think so but you never know?); are there any things in the Immortals Handbook that people would like to see that they don't already know are included? That goes out to everyone by the way.

The Epic Level Handbook is nice enough, but for my character, I can't find many things that seem to fit his "flavor".

Some people seem to think the (epic) Feats and Prestige Classes were a bit sterile in that book.

 

[BSF]

Hi BardStephenFox mate!

Unfortunately the boards wouldn't let me in last night - hence the longer than usual delay.

No worries. When I tried to reply today, the boards went into ultra slow mode. I decided to wait until I could reply from home.

Many people consider multi-class characters to be notably weaker than single class characters.

I'm curious how your group have been finding high-level play?

Indeed! When my players bring up multi-classing, I discuss with them the concept of sacrificing depth of abilities for breadth. It is difficult to multi-class into something extremely focused, except in those instances where you get class synergy on the way to a focused PrC. Stephen is certainly not optimized for combat. He is good at performing with a +22 on Sing, and he is great at Diplomacy with a +26. Though, I still need to top off the ranks of Diplomacy. However, he is still very versatile and does a good job and helping the party by covering a wide area of things. He is OK at doing a lot of things.

As for high-level play, it has been ... interesting. This game is different in that regard since the PC's are paupers compared to the book treasure charts. Between 5 characters, we have 3 magical weapons. Stephen easily has the most magic and that is because he keeps creating equipment for himself. I have run games with characters up to 15th level and high level characters can do quite a bit. The capabilities of the group I am playing in are pretty strong. However, we have not truly had a chance to flex our muscle so to speak. The DM is trying to keep the challenge, while recovering from our lack of treasure. Storywise, it all makes sense, but I think the DM is having to spend more time re-assessing encounters because we do not have the equipment to overcome high DR and that sort of thing. For me, high-level play has been kind of fun because my character is less optimized. I constantly try to make my abilities work to our advantage. Things like using Ghost Sound to create the noise of a Dire Tiger nearby to see if I can cause our opponents to divide their attention for even 1 round. I also focus more on characterization and roleplay. It is fun to write up personal journals marvelling at the destrictive power my companions wield and hoping I am not a liability while blithely ignoring the fact that we easily speak with kings, barons, guild masters, etc because my Diplomacy is so dang high.

I have an epic feat in the IH that should specifically address the above problem, but I don't want to spoil the surprise at this point.

Doh! OK, I'll be patient.

...and is that now the path you hope to tread over the next few levels; Druid? Or is the Prestige Race or (FFG) 'School of' idea next on the agenda?

Well, right now I am in min/max mode. We have 3 more levels before Epic rules change BAB and Save bonuses. For 18th, I will probably pick up my 8th level of Bard. The skill points will help me top my Perform ranks off, I will get a BAB increase, an increase to REF and WILL, and I will improve my Inspire Courage. It's an all-around win. After that, I will probably dump the next two levels into my PrC.

My DM has a few custom schools that we haven't yet found. One of those might be interesting to work with, we will see. There is also supposed to be something special we have to do to reach Epic levels. I'm not sure what that entails yet. So, I am looking at possible ways to use that Exp if it is a quest that we are ill-positioned to pursue at the time it comes up. Long term, Stephen will take more levels of Druid. A lot will depend on how things shake out down the road in the game.

Indeed. Incidently the Celtic Pantheon should be the first pantheon I tackle in the 'Immortals Index'.

Very cool! Will you include some of the heroes as well as deities?

Its difficult to anticipate where your character wants to go, but I think I will have a Prestige Class or two that might interest you.

Really? I find that intriguing. He is kind of a wacky build, so it sounds like you have some interesting thoughts.

I hope so too - I already have visions of your character perhaps gaining and combining the Music and Nature portfolios?

OK, that is a wonderful teaser! It sounds very interesting and that would really fit where some of his focus is going.

Just incase there are any aspects of the genre I have missed in the Immortals Handbook (I don't think so but you never know?); are there any things in the Immortals Handbook that people would like to see that they don't already know are included? That goes out to everyone by the way.

Sure, I'll throw in a few more questions.

How feasible would it be to use the Immortals Handbook to build some of the same stle characters that you see in the Silmarillion? What if I want to play somebody like Fingolfin, who personally fights Morgoth and wounds him 7 times? Or a character such as Beren who crossed Ered Gorgoroth and Nan Dungortheb? Or Luthien, whose song and spells were so powerful as to defeat Sauron and overcome Carcharoth and Morgoth? Tolkien had some powerful characters in the earlier ages of Middle Earth.

Some people seem to think the (epic) Feats and Prestige Classes were a bit sterile in that book.

Uninspired comes to my mind. Very little that is truly Epic, a lot that is just bigger. I do like the feats such as Positive Energy Aura. It makes sense that a Cleric might be so infused with the energy of her deity that undead cannot even come close to them. Epic spellcasting seemed to have so much potential in the teasers, but the implementation just left me feeling Blah.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey BArdStephenFox mate!

No worries. When I tried to reply today, the boards went into ultra slow mode. I decided to wait until I could reply from home.

I was busy for most of the day with personal stuff, hence the delay.

Indeed! When my players bring up multi-classing, I discuss with them the concept of sacrificing depth of abilities for breadth. It is difficult to multi-class into something extremely focused, except in those instances where you get class synergy on the way to a focused PrC. Stephen is certainly not optimized for combat. He is good at performing with a +22 on Sing, and he is great at Diplomacy with a +26. Though, I still need to top off the ranks of Diplomacy. However, he is still very versatile and does a good job and helping the party by covering a wide area of things. He is OK at doing a lot of things.

As for high-level play, it has been ... interesting. This game is different in that regard since the PC's are paupers compared to the book treasure charts. Between 5 characters, we have 3 magical weapons.

Now thats interesting; perhaps my Challenge Rating/Encounter Level Rules in the Immortals Handbook will help your DM make allowances for any treasure discrepancies.

Stephen easily has the most magic and that is because he keeps creating equipment for himself. I have run games with characters up to 15th level and high level characters can do quite a bit. The capabilities of the group I am playing in are pretty strong. However, we have not truly had a chance to flex our muscle so to speak. The DM is trying to keep the challenge, while recovering from our lack of treasure. Storywise, it all makes sense, but I think the DM is having to spend more time re-assessing encounters because we do not have the equipment to overcome high DR and that sort of thing. For me, high-level play has been kind of fun because my character is less optimized. I constantly try to make my abilities work to our advantage. Things like using Ghost Sound to create the noise of a Dire Tiger nearby to see if I can cause our opponents to divide their attention for even 1 round. I also focus more on characterization and roleplay. It is fun to write up personal journals marvelling at the destrictive power my companions wield and hoping I am not a liability while blithely ignoring the fact that we easily speak with kings, barons, guild masters, etc because my Diplomacy is so dang high.

The main idea is to enjoy yourselves, which you seem to be doing.

Well, right now I am in min/max mode. We have 3 more levels before Epic rules change BAB and Save bonuses. For 18th, I will probably pick up my 8th level of Bard. The skill points will help me top my Perform ranks off, I will get a BAB increase, an increase to REF and WILL, and I will improve my Inspire Courage. It's an all-around win. After that, I will probably dump the next two levels into my PrC.

I could tell you some horror stories about min/maxing I have read about from a few people on other message boards: 24th-level characters defeating a dragonflight of Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragons; Cohorts with all their ability scores over 100; that sort of thing.

By comparison what other people call min/maxing seems positively pedestrian.

My DM has a few custom schools that we haven't yet found. One of those might be interesting to work with, we will see. There is also supposed to be something special we have to do to reach Epic levels. I'm not sure what that entails yet. So, I am looking at possible ways to use that Exp if it is a quest that we are ill-positioned to pursue at the time it comes up. Long term, Stephen will take more levels of Druid. A lot will depend on how things shake out down the road in the game.

Considering the Celtic theme does your DM refer to various Celtic Gods I wonder?

Very cool! Will you include some of the heroes as well as deities?

Yes; I have four heroes already 'pencilled in'.

Really? I find that intriguing. He is kind of a wacky build, so it sounds like you have some interesting thoughts.

Well, I don't know if this makes sense but my Prestige Classes are at the same time 'general' and 'specific'.

OK, that is a wonderful teaser! It sounds very interesting and that would really fit where some of his focus is going.

Well there are 48 Portfolios to choose from as well as rules for creating your own. So there should be something in those alone for everyone.

Sure, I'll throw in a few more questions.

How feasible would it be to use the Immortals Handbook to build some of the same stle characters that you see in the Silmarillion? What if I want to play somebody like Fingolfin, who personally fights Morgoth and wounds him 7 times? Or a character such as Beren who crossed Ered Gorgoroth and Nan Dungortheb? Or Luthien, whose song and spells were so powerful as to defeat Sauron and overcome Carcharoth and Morgoth? Tolkien had some powerful characters in the earlier ages of Middle Earth.

Well to be honest I am not well enough versed in the Silmarillion to be able to comment on that accurately.

I was recommended the Silmarillion when I was very young (just after I had read the Hobbit) and I never really warmed to it (its hardly easy reading). In fact that put me off reading the Lord of the Rings for many, many years.

Uninspired comes to my mind. Very little that is truly Epic, a lot that is just bigger. I do like the feats such as Positive Energy Aura. It makes sense that a Cleric might be so infused with the energy of her deity that undead cannot even come close to them. Epic spellcasting seemed to have so much potential in the teasers, but the implementation just left me feeling Blah.

Well I hope I have a number of ideas that can inspire your campaign to greater things.

 

[BSF]

Hey BArdStephenFox mate!
I was busy for most of the day with personal stuff, hence the delay.

Hey Upper_Krust. Busy times at work for me. I am finding that I am delegating this conversation to home posts so I can think about it thoroughly.

Now thats interesting; perhaps my Challenge Rating/Encounter Level Rules in the Immortals Handbook will help your DM make allowances for any treasure discrepancies.

That is an interesting thought! I admit that in my games I do not follow the book formulas either. I hadn't thought of using your CR system to rescale encounters. Hmm, that is very interesting...

The main idea is to enjoy yourselves, which you seem to be doing.

Yes and yes! It actually makes me sad when I see other people post that they are not having fun in their games. When that happens, everyone needs to take a break, of some sort, and come back to the game when they can have fun. My DM has been running for 2 1/2 years without really taking a break. Every so often, I check with him to make sure he is having fun too. If he ever needs a break, we can certainly find something to do while he recovers.

I could tell you some horror stories about min/maxing I have read about from a few people on other message boards: 24th-level characters defeating a dragonflight of Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragons; Cohorts with all their ability scores over 100; that sort of thing.

By comparison what other people call min/maxing seems positively pedestrian.

OK, I'll grant you that. Sometimes I feel a bit bad when I drop into metagame mode too much. It comes from being a DM for 23 years I think. I can look at our group and point out half a dozen weaknesses that could be exploited. As I start to gear up for how to cover those weaknesses, I can usually tell myself to calm down. The characters should have weaknesses of some sort.

Considering the Celtic theme does your DM refer to various Celtic Gods I wonder?

A lot of his mythology was lifted wholesale from the Silmarillion. He designed much of the campaign world over 20 years ago. The Celtic gods certainly exist in some form, but it is not yet clear to me how accurate they are to the Celtic mythos. I'm sure my character could answer that better (since he has 6 ranks of Knowledge (Brehon Law)) but we will discover more of that culture as the game progresses.

Yes; I have four heroes already 'pencilled in'.

Excellent!

Well, I don't know if this makes sense but my Prestige Classes are at the same time 'general' and 'specific'.

I _think_ I understand what you are trying to convey. I am sure it will all be much clearer once you make it available.

Well there are 48 Portfolios to choose from as well as rules for creating your own. So there should be something in those alone for everyone.

Oh my! And Music and Nature are two of them. Exactly how are Portfolios going to work? Can you explain it without giving too much away? (My apologies if you have answered this before. I am a new addition to the conversation.)

Well to be honest I am not well enough versed in the Silmarillion to be able to comment on that accurately.

I was recommended the Silmarillion when I was very young (just after I had read the Hobbit) and I never really warmed to it (its hardly easy reading). In fact that put me off reading the Lord of the Rings for many, many years.

Fair enough, though I am sorry to hear it. I really enjoyed the Silmarillion. In fact, I have been rereading it just this week. Not a problem though. Since Tolkien borrowed so much from mythology, it is quite likely you could replicate the battles of the First Age of Middle Earth.

Well I hope I have a number of ideas that can inspire your campaign to greater things.

I'm sure you will. Even the little bit I already know has given me new thoughts for my campaigns.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Upper_Krust.

Hi BardStephenFox mate!

Busy times at work for me. I am finding that I am delegating this conversation to home posts so I can think about it thoroughly.

I'm trying that routine out too.

That is an interesting thought! I admit that in my games I do not follow the book formulas either. I hadn't thought of using your CR system to rescale encounters. Hmm, that is very interesting...

Yes and yes! It actually makes me sad when I see other people post that they are not having fun in their games. When that happens, everyone needs to take a break, of some sort, and come back to the game when they can have fun. My DM has been running for 2 1/2 years without really taking a break. Every so often, I check with him to make sure he is having fun too. If he ever needs a break, we can certainly find something to do while he recovers.

Good idea.

OK, I'll grant you that. Sometimes I feel a bit bad when I drop into metagame mode too much. It comes from being a DM for 23 years I think. I can look at our group and point out half a dozen weaknesses that could be exploited. As I start to gear up for how to cover those weaknesses, I can usually tell myself to calm down. The characters should have weaknesses of some sort.

That works as long as the enemies have weaknesses too.

A lot of his mythology was lifted wholesale from the Silmarillion. He designed much of the campaign world over 20 years ago. The Celtic gods certainly exist in some form, but it is not yet clear to me how accurate they are to the Celtic mythos. I'm sure my character could answer that better (since he has 6 ranks of Knowledge (Brehon Law)) but we will discover more of that culture as the game progresses.

Excellent!

Well I think its two heroes and two villains of the Celtic Mythos.

I _think_ I understand what you are trying to convey. I am sure it will all be much clearer once you make it available.

I hope so too.

Oh my! And Music and Nature are two of them.

Yep.

Exactly how are Portfolios going to work? Can you explain it without giving too much away?

Yes, they are Templates.

So when you become a deity the DM chooses one portfolio for your character that they think best personifies the character. The player then gets to choose one for themselves. So its possible to have the same Portfolio twice

(My apologies if you have answered this before. I am a new addition to the conversation.)

No apologies necessary mate. I can never remember all the questions anyway.

Fair enough, though I am sorry to hear it. I really enjoyed the Silmarillion. In fact, I have been rereading it just this week. Not a problem though. Since Tolkien borrowed so much from mythology, it is quite likely you could replicate the battles of the First Age of Middle Earth.

I am sure I will take another crack at it in a few months when I have some spare time, the Lord of the Rings movies have left me wanting more.

I'm sure you will. Even the little bit I already know has given me new thoughts for my campaigns.

Thats the plan.

 

[CRGreathouse]

How's the IH coming so far? I know you don't like to give out target dates... but how much have you typed up so far?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi CRGreathouse mate!

How's the IH coming so far? I know you don't like to give out target dates... but how much have you typed up so far?

Well I probably have anywhere between one third to nine tenths depending on the chapter.

I think I should be able to put two of the chapters to bed this week.

 

[Revenge of the Bjorn]

"Say Goodnight, Gracie."

"Goodnight, Gracie"

 

[CRGreathouse]

Well I probably have anywhere between one third to nine tenths depending on the chapter.

I think I should be able to put two of the chapters to bed this week.

Good. I hate to bother you, distracting you from getting more finished... but I always need to know your progress so I don't wake up in th middle of the night in a cold sweat screaming, "He's canceled it, he's canceled it!"

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi CRGreathouse mate!

Good. I hate to bother you, distracting you from getting more finished...

Thats okay mate, I am trying to ration my time on the boards at the moment to get things moving along a bit more swiftly...with mixed success.

but I always need to know your progress so I don't wake up in th middle of the night in a cold sweat screaming, "He's canceled it, he's canceled it!"

I don't think theres much chance of that.