immortals handbook

[Upper_Krust]

Re: How do you handle...

Hi Tywyll mate!

Here is my question about the Immortal Guidebook, and I admit that this might have been answered somewhere else, but with 30+ pages of posts, I will never find it.

Thast okay, fire away!

I'll have the website sorted before the end off this month, so that should help people get the picture.

How do you deal with the disparity between characters and creatures modierfiers to hit and saves at extreme levels?

Specialisation is always a double edged sword.

Characters (even deities) that are overtly strong in one area will be weak in others.

I have run some high level stuff, both epic and my normal year and a half campaign hitting the 15-18 area. The issue I found was the monsters and characters became extremely focused. This was because the random element, the d20, only had 20 potential results. So I had the issue where monsters either could never hit, but their special abilities might be useful, or in order to hit, no one could make the saves versus their special abilities. In a group we were playing around with recently (25th level) its almost impossible to find creatures that are challenging without completely hosing other characters in the group. Its almost all or nothing.

With regards Melee; BAB scales faster than AC; however damage scales slower than Hit Points.

So at low levels you are less likely to hit but proportionally deal more damage when you do hit. At epic levels you will likely hit all the time* but proportionally the damage you will deal is much less.

*Unless your opponent has specialised in shoring up its defense.

So in that respect combat is still balanced.

Saving Throws are another matter however. When we ran our Immortal campaign using 1st Edition rules the saving throws generally maxed out at a fixed base save '2'. Meaning you only ever failed on a natural '1'. This introduced a sort of 'Russian Roulette' excitement to the game which was admittedly nerve-wracking on occasion.

This meant information was vital, as a deity you always tried to manipulate the situation to your advantage and your opponents disadvantage.

However, now its actually possible to increase DCs to a point where even gods may only succeed on a natural '20'!

There are a number of ways this is counteracted.

Firstly, mechanics. I have made a number of minor changes to epic spellcasting; salient divine abilities and epic feats so as to curtail DCs while at the same time still allowing them to be increased.

Secondly, campaigning. Deities or powerful epic characters who overtly specialise in one area will of course gain a reputation. So opponents will generally know their opponents strengths and can take measures accordingly.

eg. Thor has a reputation as a heavy hitter, clearly unless you are confident of your own abilities or have some advantage he doesn't know about, it would be poor tactics to engage him in melee.

Also its very tricky to permanently kill a deity so while you might defeat (cause to retreat from the field) a deity or even destroy its manifestation that probably won't be the last you see of it.

...and of course if you do happen to permanently destroy a deity I'm sure its Pantheon will be quick to redress such an afront.

How will your material handle what is, to me, a fundemental flaw of high level gaming?

Combat is still balanced.

Saving Throws, see above.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

UK, there is one more important thing you should take care of before releasing the final PDF and Immortal's Handbook: TRAPS.

Traps have CR or EL, but there is no clear way to figure out whether the numbers are right or not. Currently, I just use the current CR numbers as EL, but I'm not so sure this is accurate. You should detail a system to determine CR/EL for traps.

I'll have a think about it, however, I imagine this should be addressed in the CR/EL thread.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again mate!

Alright, I'll try and give a very basic stat block to the paradoxia. There won't be much in the way of hard numbers, though, I don't have the time.

Paradoxia

A Paradoxia appears as a 10 foot tall humanoid with reflective hematite skin. Its head has an identical face on the front and back. It can shift its feet in either direction. They are genderless. Frequently, one set of arms will wield a weapon and shield, and the other set will cast spells.

I like the desription...beings with multiple faces are very esoteric.

HD: 60 (Somewhere in the neighborhood of 500 hit points.)

I generally try to ascertain who it would fight against to gain a measure of its power, the above would suggest along the lines of Lesser-Intermediate Gods; which may be a bit too high given its non-affiliated nature.

AC: (Pretty high, largely due to vast insight bonuses. A 40th level fighter could hit them reliably, and a 40th level cleric/rogue type who focused on violence would hit frequently.)
Attacks: They can strike armed or unarmed, and generally never miss, thanks to being under what is effectively a continuous True Strike effect. Their CR should be calculated as though a Paradoxia will only miss on a natural 1. An unarmed strike from a paradoxia knocks the target in to the future a number of rounds equal to the points of damage inflicted divided by six. Average damage from one of their strikes is about 40 points of impact damage plus 20 or so points of temporal friction damage.

Temporal friction...I like!

Speed: Only about 50 feet, but they can use their Dual Actions ability to travel a full 400 feet in a round if they have to.
Saves: Very good. Thanks to their immunities, they rarely have to make saves of any significance.
Special Qualities: Their Paradoxial special quality serves as a continuous death ward for them, and their two faces give them Dual Actions, like Demigorgon. Additionally, they are never caught flatfooted or surprised. They are incapable of gaining experience points, but may 'spend' from a virtual pool of 10,000 experience points that refreshes itself every day. They do not breathe, eat, or drink.

Dunno if I would pursue this virtual EXP idea.

Special Attacks: They can emulate any divination spell of 4th level or lower at will as a free action as an extraordinary ability with a 'caster level' of 60. Additionally, their strikes do the whole knock you forward in time thing. They can also travel in time at will, but have no fine control - They always travel at least 50 years, and generally wind up from 50% to 150% off.
Abilities: Paradoxia are impossibly strong, around in the 70's. Their other physical skills are average, but their mental stats are phenomonal.
Skills: Lacking flight, they make up for it with very high movement skills that allow them to literally walk on water or leap dozens of feet in the air to face their foes.
Alignment: Any. There are nine, each of which with the respective alignment.

I like the alignment idea.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Bjorn mate!

Well, that's very kind of you, but I don't have any steady income, so it doesn't matter.

That makes two of us...although thats one similarity I'll be hoping to shake in the not too distant future.

 

[Bjorn Doneerson]

I noticed for a long time, the Immortals Handbook thread died and the CR/EL one was doing really well, but I didn't bother to check in(mostly cause I'm not a good numbers person and so the topic just didn't catch my interest ). Did all the discussion end up there? Or did the deific discussion just die down for a bit?

 

[Anabstercorian]

And now - The Glasshiv Swarm

Glasshiv Swarm - Medium Swarm of Fine Construsts

A glasshiv is a fine crystal wedge about 4 inches long, as thick as a sword blade and tipped with an edge so sharp you could shave with it. They're colored a sulfurous yellow and are slightly transparent, and often stained with the blood of their victims. Occasionally they 'dance' strangely in mid air to shake off congealed ichor.

HD: 20 (Somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 hit points.)
AC: Almost irrelevant, given that Swarms are immune to attacks that target a single creature - I.E., anything that requires an attack roll. However, bludgeoning weapons are a unique weakness of glasshiv swarms and they can be attacked by two handed bludgeoning weapons size Medium or larger. Their AC is in the 30's.
Attacks: Their Swarm damage is 10d6.
Space/Reach: 5 ft. / 5 ft.
Speed: 60 feet, perfect flight.
Saves: Fantastic reflex, poor will, poor fortitude
Special Qualities: Glasshiv swarms can go in to a torpor to temporarily gain Fast Healing 3, which cannot heal Sonic damage.
Special Attacks: They have a few interesting abilities - They can suddenly form a giant spotlight to create normal light or Sunbeam effects at will, as they can generate and store light, and they can ignore the first 5 points of hardness of any object they swarm.
Abilities: Glasshiv swarms have excellent dexterity, no con, no int, and average wisdom and poor charisma. Almost no strength.
Alignment: Generally neutral.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Bjorn mate!

I noticed for a long time, the Immortals Handbook thread died and the CR/EL one was doing really well, but I didn't bother to check in (mostly cause I'm not a good numbers person and so the topic just didn't catch my interest ). Did all the discussion end up there? Or did the deific discussion just die down for a bit?

The Immortals Handbook discussion I think faded a bit because its difficult for people to discuss things they haven't really seen for any extended period. Also I didn't really want to post many spoilers before the release just to artificially keep the thread alive.

Whereas the CR/EL document is already out there (albeit the prototype) so its easier for people to get their teeth into.

Hence theres more 'surf and turf' action in the CR/EL thread.

I imagine when the Immortals Handbook is released that discussion will pick up again.

 

[Bjorn Doneerson]

Hopefully I can catch you for a moment. What did you mean by "surf and turf?"

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Bjorn mate!

Hopefully I can catch you for a moment. What did you mean by "surf and turf?"

Its an expression I heard in a movie once (Robert DeNiro in Midnight Run if my memory serves me); I believe its used to convey a dichotomy or friction in a pleasant way...as such it seemed an ideal metaphor for the thread, in fact threads in general.

 

[Bjorn Doneerson]

Ahhh. The problem was to me "surf and turf" always meant a dish of fish and steak. One can see how that may confuse a person. Or maybe I'm just not that bright. I dunno.