Imp Crit + Keen = ???

[apesamongus]

#1 Of course, who wouldn't?

Then what are you talking about? If you roll both at once, then there is absolutely ZERO difference in time from getting more crits.

#2 Nothing? You use that word too readily I think, especially a die roll that can occur after every individual attack, every round, every combat.

And infinity X 0 is still 0. (ok, maybe not in higher math, but in this case, yes)

#3 None of what you listed occur anywhere as frequently as a fighters to hit roll because they are all defensive in nature.

And given that you can often be attacked more often by many smaller enemies (you can get attacked many, many more times in a round than you even get to attack yourself), then concealment has a much bigger chance of coming up than a crit threat even from the widest range weapon. One tank with a cloak of displacement can potentially have to roll (extreme case here) 40 miss chances in one round - or more if they have reach weapons. Even more with archers. And any of those that crit might potentially be countered with your fortification. You'll never threaten that many crits.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

While statistically the same over long runs as the 3e stacking rules, as someone already mentioned, improving the crit multiplier will give more variance for individual crits. Which means more damage.

I agree with what you are saying and after some thought I'd take your point even further; a rapier with a *3 crit would be in play something like a keen battle axe - the weapons flavour & feel would be totally different.

WotC may have looked at the increased crit multiplier solution and seen that it would have made weapons feel too different, and scrapped the idea. It is all speculation but that could well have been the last gasp chance blown before WotC decided to unveil the nerf stick.

 

[RandomPrecision]

Hmmm...I'm seeing a lot about tedium here, and I wonder if I'm the only person here to whom die-rolling isn't a major process? I've rolled 2d20 when I have a good chance of getting critical hits (rapier or scimitar with Imp. Crit. or keen) (which completely negates the time factor, btw), but I've also just rolled the dice regularly. If it's a threat, you just pick it up and roll again. It really doesn't take very long if you know what your threat range is.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

The die rolling is only part of it, the other part is the actual calculation of the damage.

Assuming a pc is getting wailed on by a very high level keen/imp crit rapier fighter, the dm rolls & rolls the d20s + rolls the damage die, calculates damage, informs the player and then repeats 3 more times.

In the case of the none stack, the dm rolls d20 & damage, rolls to confirm any critical threat if need be, calculates damage, informs the player & repeats 3 times.

My guess is that what would be the tedium is the extra multiplication that regularly needs to occur.

 

[RandomPrecision]

The die rolling is only part of it, the other part is the actual calculation of the damage.

Assuming a pc is getting wailed on by a very high level keen/imp crit rapier fighter, the dm rolls & rolls the d20s + rolls the damage die, calculates damage, informs the player and then repeats 3 more times.

In the case of the none stack, the dm rolls d20 & damage, rolls to confirm any critical threat if need be, calculates damage, informs the player & repeats 3 times.

My guess is that what would be the tedium is the extra multiplication that regularly needs to occur.

I don't see how it would be any more tedious. Multiplying damage by some number takes less than a second.

It certainly couldn't be more tedious than a rogue with greater two-weapon fighting for six attacks a round, with each hit potentially dealing 10d6 of sneak attack damage.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

How then would you explain WotC statement that the stack was tedious & made criticals not special? Saying that they don't know what they're talking about doesn't cut it, after all they designed 3ed - they by definition have to be the experts.

 

[Storyteller01]

How then would you explain WotC statement that the stack was tedious & made criticals not special? Saying that they don't know what they're talking about doesn't cut it, after all they designed 3ed - they by definition have to be the experts.

Actually, a number of the orignal 3rd ed design team walked (It's how Malhavoc Press was started ). So it's safe to say that, yea, the new design team didn't have a clue.


But seriously, with the number of seemingly random changes (JMHO) may show a lack of cohesive thought on the part of the designers. Too many changes who's intent seem to contradict one another.

For another example of tedium, try adding up the damage of a 12th level fighter, specialiizing in the Greatsword, using Improved Critical... and crits while using the power attack feat.

 

[glass]

Maybe it's just me (and I'm not looking to make an edition war, I can see that ion the horizon as it is ), but it seems that the 3.5 changes were a mismesh of offering ideas.

Weapon sizes were expanded for greater detail and emmersion, but cover rules were simplified (overly so, in my opinion).

Improved crit and keen do not stack, but a character with Power Attack can double their feat advantage by using a 2 hnd weapon.

Haste was reduced in power, then Quill Blast was introduced.

Maybe it's a case of too many chefs in the kitchen?

It seems I don't often agree with Soryteller01, but this is spot on IMO!


glass.

 

[Gez]

Here's my solution:

Keen doesn't change the threat range.
Improved Critical doesn't change the threat range.

Instead, both give a +5 bonus on confirmation rolls. And they stack.

 

[RandomPrecision]

How then would you explain WotC statement that the stack was tedious & made criticals not special? Saying that they don't know what they're talking about doesn't cut it, after all they designed 3ed - they by definition have to be the experts.

I'm saying from experience and logic that it doesn't make the game any more tedious. I don't care who they are, they can't take either experience or logic from me. :\