Implement crit benefits on a power that deals no damage?

[OnlineDM]

This would probably be an easy-to-answer question if I had my books in front of me, but I don't have them with me at the moment.

When a PC scores a critical hit using a power that deals no damage (such as the Cleric's Astral Seal), do they get their implement's critical hit dice and/or other critical hit benefits? The Cleric in question has an implement that deals 1d6 extra damage per plus on a crit and also lets a PC within 5 squares spend a healing surge.

I'm guessing that they don't get the crit dice (I'm thinking that the bonus dice are added to the damage roll, which doesn't exist here) but that they do get the extra crit benefit. However, that's a total guess.

Thanks for your help!

 

[GrandMasterofFlowers]

As far as i can remember, non damaging powers don't do any crit damage except if you have something like a War ring, which specifically says it does extra crit damage.

 

[aurance]

1) If the attack doesn't deal damage, it doesn't deal any extra damage on a crit either.
2) The non-damaging portions of the critical hit still go off.

 

[OnlineDM]

Wow - my guess was right! Thanks!

 

[Riastlin]

Huh, I would have ruled that differently. Is there an official answer somewhere (i.e. in a book, FAQ, etc.? -- Sorry no access to book at work). My thinking on it is that crit bonus is extra damage you do on a critical hit. So, even in the case of Astral Seal, while it doesn't normally deal damage you are just adding 1d6 to the initial max damage of 0. After all, on a crit there really isn't a damage roll since its maxed out.

That being said, assuming you had a pacifist cleric, I would probably let him choose not to deal the crit damage in order to avoid getting stunned.

/shrug

 

[jbear]

Yeah, right enough.

But this is a rule I am aware of but don't adhere to. Basically because the player of the cleric is ther only one affected by this rule in my party, and she is already so focused on healing anyway, if she rolls a crit on Moment of Glory: 'Let the Crit Dice roll!'

 

[interwyrm]

If the crit effect is a status effect like knocking prone or doing ongoing damage (jagged dagger), will those still take effect on a non-damaging power? (Hypnotism in my case)

 

[OnlineDM]

If the crit effect is a status effect like knocking prone or doing ongoing damage (jagged dagger), will those still take effect on a non-damaging power? (Hypnotism in my case)

According to the answers above (which I believe are right), yes, the non-damage part of the crit effect still happens. In my example, it was letting someone spend a healing surge. In your example, it's knocking prone or applying ongoing damage.

 

[Riastlin]

Yeah, right enough.

But this is a rule I am aware of but don't adhere to. Basically because the player of the cleric is ther only one affected by this rule in my party, and she is already so focused on healing anyway, if she rolls a crit on Moment of Glory: 'Let the Crit Dice roll!'

Yeah in roughly 27 levels of play covering several different groups (including a few gamedays, etc.) I think I've seen this issue come up twice. Granted, a Pacifist cleric will have it happen a little more often, but that I guess is why I might give him the choice of applying crit damage -- realizing of course that if he does apply it to a bloodied creature, he in turn is stunned. Of course I also don't have any pacifist clerics either, so kind of a moot point for me.

In any event, it hasn't had an impact on my games, but would still be curious as to where it officially states this.

 

[Mr. Teapot]

Huh, I would have ruled that differently. Is there an official answer somewhere (i.e. in a book, FAQ, etc.?

It was answered in the FAQ early on, I believe. But the most authoritative source I can find in under a minute is Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdom:

An attack that does not deal damage still does not deal damage on a critical hit.

Which is pretty straightforward and clearcut on the matter.


This is actually part of a larger, more general rule that you only add extra damage and damage boosts if there is actually some base damage to add it to. So your gnome wizard doesn't add damage onto Illusory Obstacles (which does no damage), even though he has a feat that adds bonus damage onto any arcane illusion power he casts.