Implement/Shaman questions

[Max1mus]

FYI the Official Character Builder requires a character to hold a totem in-hand to use it. There is only a special slot for Holy Symbols and Ki Focuses.

 

[CapnZapp]

I guess it might help if I told you I don't see too many scenarios where a shaman would or could wield BOTH a longspear and a totem.

But if that is what you were expecting when you read the Shaman's chapter, it does explain why you have such a hard time accepting the RAW.

I'm sure there is a corner-case where it's possible; but generally, the only main scenario where I see a Shaman using his weapon proficiency is when he has found a "you can use this as an implement"-spear. And then he'd use only the longspear.

In all other cases (again, for a straight-up vanilla character) I'd think the Shaman will use an implement (or two). And no spear.

But, and here's the point, that still doesn't make the proficiency pointless, worthless or in need of revision.

 

[Perun]

tThere are some magic longspears that count as totems specifically for this reason. can't name any off the top of my head but i'm positive i've seen it in either the magic weapon section or the totem section.

If it hasn't already been mentioned, a quick look through the weapon section of the Adventurer's Vault 2 gave me the Alfsair Spear (lvl 3+) which can be used as an implement by any class that uses totems, and the Totemic Spear (lvl 2+) which is usable by shamans. There's also the Totemic Warclub (lvl 2+), also usable by shamans only, but that's obviously not a spear

Hope this helps.

Regards.

 

[CapnZapp]

The Warclub is interesting, because it shows so clearly that even when a Shaman do decide to use a weapon, he or she will generally not utilize his Longspear proficiency.

The Totemic Warclub is a mace enchantment. And because a Shaman will generally never use it as-a-weapon, only ever as-an-implement, the fact it isn't a longspear never becomes an issue.

(It's probably easiest for the Shaman to keep doing any Opportunity Attacks unarmed, just as a totem-wielding Shaman would need to do, rather than to have to read up on the using-a-mace-without-the-proficiency rules.)

Of course, in the case of the Totemic Spear, it is obviously better if the enchantment is laid upon a Longspear than a Spear or Javelin. (See - a use for the Longspear proficiency! )

 

[Perun]

The Warclub is interesting, because it shows so clearly that even when a Shaman do decide to use a weapon, he or she will generally not utilize his Longspear proficiency.

The Totemic Warclub is a mace enchantment. And because a Shaman will generally never use it as-a-weapon, only ever as-an-implement, the fact it isn't a longspear never becomes an issue.

(It's probably easiest for the Shaman to keep doing any Opportunity Attacks unarmed, just as a totem-wielding Shaman would need to do, rather than to have to read up on the using-a-mace-without-the-proficiency rules.)

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. Totemic Warclub is a mace enchantment, and Club, Mace, Greatclub and Morningstar are all Simple weapons from the Mace group (PHI, p. 218), all of which shaman is proficient with (PHII, p. 118).

Regards.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. Totemic Warclub is a mace enchantment, and Club, Mace, Greatclub and Morningstar are all Simple weapons from the Mace group (PHI, p. 218), all of which shaman is proficient with (PHII, p. 118).

Regards.

Took the words right out of my mouth. Virtually all PCs are proficient with the club. Admittedly though it is about the least effective weapon in the game. Still, at higher levels it probably doesn't matter.

The thing is Shaman really don't USE weapons much at all. How many melee powers do they have? None that I know of. Shaman is a WIS primary class with CON and INT as secondaries, they aren't going to do much with a weapon anyway. I can't say exactly WHY they have longspear as a class proficiency but its really not a particularly useful one, so just ignore it or else take the Alfsair Spear or one of the totemic weapons.

 

[CapnZapp]

Okay, that was a mistake. Of course the shaman is proficient with the club.

But my point still stands - even if it was a Totemic Fullblade the Shaman could just by virtue of its propery use it in all ways that count.

The only practical instance where the lack of proficiency is felt (i.e. where the Shaman wants to use the weapon as a weapon) is for opportunity attacks.

And as you all know, the Shaman is probably the one class doing the least OAs.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Okay, that was a mistake. Of course the shaman is proficient with the club.

But my point still stands - even if it was a Totemic Fullblade the Shaman could just by virtue of its propery use it in all ways that count.

The only practical instance where the lack of proficiency is felt (i.e. where the Shaman wants to use the weapon as a weapon) is for opportunity attacks.

And as you all know, the Shaman is probably the one class doing the least OAs.

Yeah, I agree. There's no real reason for a shaman to care much which weapon he's got. Alfsair Spear seems like probably the best choice generally speaking since its a decent weapon you don't have to spend a feat on and there's always that off chance to make an OA, though it might be just as well to go the dual implement route.

 

[CapnZapp]

since its a decent weapon you don't have to spend a feat on

Again: my point is that as a Shaman, you can use whatever weapon you're allowed to use as an implement.

You don't "have to" spend a feat on anything. In fact, most Shaman player probably don't feel its worth wasting a feat to get proficiency if that only upgrades your OAs from piss-poor to merely poor.

You can still dual-wield a Totemic Spear with another totem - a lot of Shamans will probably find the ability to use a second implement's passive properties to be better than to actually wield-as-a-weapon a Longspear just for the physical attacks.

(If all of this were clear to you already, then I apologize for the over-explanation.)

 

[Perun]

I actually find the Totemic Warclub to be a pretty neat enchantment. There are a lot of Melee spirit attack powers, and with Totemic Warclub, a shaman can egage in "melee" pretty decently -- in fact he has the option of practically being in two places at once, since he can use his melee spirit powers originating from his spirit ally or his own square.

As for OAs, shaman likely won't be any worse with them than any other non-Str dependent build. And if OAs are a big deal, there's always the Melee Training feat.