Implements as "weapons"

[Sadrik]

Implements
Improvised 1d4, one handed, Proficiency +0, targets REF, Range 5
Holy Symbol 1d8, off handed, Proficiency +0, targets REF, Range 5, Divine group
Orb 1d8, one handed, Proficiency +1, targets WILL, Range 10, Arcane group
Pact Blade 1d8, off handed, Proficiency +1, targets FORT, counts as dagger weapon, Range 10, Arcane group
Rod 1d10, off handed, Proficiency +0, targets FORT, counts as club weapon, Range 10, Arcane group
Staff 2d6, two handed, Proficiency +0, targets REF, counts as quarterstaff weapon, Range 15, Arcane group
Tome 1d12, two handed, Proficiency +0, targets WILL, Range 10, Arcane group
Wand 2d4, off handed, Proficiency +1, targets REF, Range 20, Arcane group

The Implementation of these Implements
To make this work all spells that refer to 3d6 would become 3[W] and so on.

Basic Implement Attacks
To do a "basic" attack with an implement you must have access to that type of implement, use that classes prime ability score and they target the defense listed with the implement. That defense listed only targets that during a "basic" attack and is not used with any powers.

Cost and Weight
As per the PHB equipment section.

This bumps implement users into the damage range that weapons commonly are at.

Where to go:
1. Comment on the usefulness and power level.
2. Comment on if your idea of the implement is realized correctly.
3. Add in the other source book classes and implements, I generally don't have them.
4. Lastly I am taking ideas for "superior" Implements.

 

[malcolm_n]

The prof bonus on wands and orbs applies to basic implement attacks only, right? For the staff and the wand, how would you determine if a power was intended for a staff or wand before? Would all spellcaster powers default to 2d6 = 2 and with a staff you would actually deal 4d6 + Intelligence modifier? Considering some of the powers and how they operate would get pretty powerful.

Draconic Incarnation (Sorcerer daily 25, PH2 page 146), for example, is 7d6 + Charisma modifier normally. By these rules, a staff sorcerer would deal 14d6 + Charisma modifier damage to each creature in the blast, miss half.

This isn't bad, and is kinda interesting in how it's implemented (pun intended); I just worry about the power level some of the powers would gain.

 

[Sadrik]

The prof bonus on wands and orbs applies to basic implement attacks only, right?

I was thinking this would translate to all powers, similar to how a +3 proficiency weapon bonus translates to all powers. It is the balancing factor for the lower damage items like wand and orb. Additionally in the case of the wand it counteracts some of the extra bonus gained from the shield, and in the case of the orb it offers the lowest arcane base damage and it also is the most powerful wizard implement.

For the staff and the wand, how would you determine if a power was intended for a staff or wand before? Would all spellcaster powers default to 2d6 = 2 and with a staff you would actually deal 4d6 + Intelligence modifier? Considering some of the powers and how they operate would get pretty powerful.

This is precisely how it works and it does not have to be a wand power or staff power, it just is a power that uses an arcane implement or divine implement etc. Yes this is a power up for non-weapon powers. Non-weapon powers are behind the curve in damage anyway, this successfully brings them into the scope of the other powers.

Draconic Incarnation (Sorcerer daily 25, PH2 page 146), for example, is 7d6 + Charisma modifier normally. By these rules, a staff sorcerer would deal 14d6 + Charisma modifier damage to each creature in the blast, miss half.

There are more than a few 7[W] powers at 25th level plus, so they are already doing 14d6 brutal 1. I think the question is was 7d6 + CHA balanced compared to the many 7[W] powers in the first place.

This isn't bad, and is kinda interesting in how it's implemented (pun intended); I just worry about the power level some of the powers would gain.

Yes most of the upgrade in power is in the wizard, the warlock cleric and paladin do not change much at all. The clear winner here is the wizard, arguably they really needed the help anyway.

I don't own PHB2 but from the one "7" power that you pointed out I don't see as a problem. Could someone outline the other implement using classes in PHB2, for instance which ones they use.

Implement users:
Bard
Druid
Invoker
Shaman
Sorcerer

Weapon users:
Avenger
Barbarian
Warden
Swordmage

Also if there are any new implements that I am not aware of please devise them and add them to the list.

 

[Sadrik]

Meteor swarm does 8d6 in a burst 5. A weapon wielder does that or near that at 4[W], now the meteor swarming wizard can do it with a wand (16d4 and +1 to hit), orb (8d8 and +1 to hit), or staff (16d6). This truly makes the almost laughable 29th level daily wizard power something powerful.

 

[Garthanos]

Meteor swarm does 8d6 in a burst 5. A weapon wielder does that or near that at 4[W], now the meteor swarming wizard can do it with a wand (16d4 and +1 to hit), orb (8d8 and +1 to hit), or staff (16d6). This truly makes the almost laughable 29th level daily wizard power something powerful.

IS the weapon wielder doing it at range?.. and with a burst affect able to hit a lot of opponents (exploding alchemical arrows or a chakrum that bounces off multiple adversaries along a wild path of whirring destruction mayhaps -- visions of Xena running throw my head) or are you headlong comparing apples and oranges... Is the weapon wielder able to exploit vulnerabilities.. by picking ice instead of fire ? (this latter effect negligible but I used to use it as an example of hidden power inside wizard versatility). If you picked a specific power and weapon to compare to instead of hand waving I wouldn't have gotten all questiony ;p.

 

[Sadrik]

IS the weapon wielder doing it at range?..

Long bow range 40.

and with a burst affect able to hit a lot of opponents (exploding alchemical arrows or a chakrum that bounces off multiple adversaries along a wild path of whirring destruction mayhaps -- visions of Xena running throw my head) or are you headlong comparing apples and oranges...

I think you are referring to what a classes powers are. This should have no basis on what the implement does. Similar to how a weapon can be used to do a blast an implement is also capable of that too. If you are referring to possible balance issues because weapons more commonly hit fewer opponents than implements do. I can see that. The balance here would be to lower the damage down by one step. I rather like, where the damage is because the damage is comparable to where martial weapons are. Remember, those that use arcane implements generally have fewer HP, surges, lower defenses for the benefit of targeting multiple opponents. With this HR in place it makes that a little more worth while.

Is the weapon wielder able to exploit vulnerabilities.. by picking ice instead of fire ? (this latter effect negligible but I used to use it as an example of hidden power inside wizard versatility). If you picked a specific power and weapon to compare to instead of hand waving I wouldn't have gotten all questiony ;p.

Again this is determined by the power being used and not the implement the power is delivered with.

I think what you are referring to is not within the scope of this HR.

 

[Starfox]

My problem with this is that different powers use different dice. A power that does 2d10 and a power that does 3d6 do almost the same damage. With this system and a staff, the first would do 4d6 and the later do 6d6.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I like the idea of implements working more like weapons, the big problem is adjusting existing powers to an n format.

My suggestion might work along this lines:

There are 3 main characteristics for an implement:
- Damage
- Range
- Precision (Proficiency Bonus)

As a 4th, there are miscellaneous properties like they exist for weapons (brutal, versatile, light).

You could express damage as a dice modifier (-1 per dice in the power)
You could express range as a range modifier (+5 to range)
You could express precision as a attack modifier (+1 to attack)

Improvised: no modifiers
Staff: +1 damage (or maybe: Property - +1 to blast/burst?)
Orb: +5 range
Wand: -1 damage, +1 attack, +5 range
Tome: +1 attack
Rod: +1 damage
Heavy Blade: +1 damage
Light Blade (including Pact Blade): +1 attack
Holy Symbol: Property - Does not need to be wielded in hand.
Totem: Property - Brutal

Superior implements could come up at level 6, 16 and 26, and improve one two three of the properties.
So at Level 6, you could either get +5 range, +1 attack or +1 damage
At Level 16 you could choose two from this list.
At Level 21, you could choose three from this list.

 

[Garthanos]

I like the idea of implements working more like weapons, the big problem is adjusting existing powers to an n format.

My suggestion might work along this lines:

There are 3 main characteristics for an implement:
- Damage
- Range
- Precision (Proficiency Bonus)

As a 4th, there are miscellaneous properties like they exist for weapons (brutal, versatile, light).

You could express damage as a dice modifier (-1 per dice in the power)
You could express range as a range modifier (+5 to range)
You could express precision as a attack modifier (+1 to attack)

Improvised: no modifiers
Staff: +1 damage (or maybe: Property - +1 to blast/burst?)
Orb: +5 range
Wand: -1 damage, +1 attack, +5 range
Tome: +1 attack
Rod: +1 damage
Heavy Blade: +1 damage
Light Blade (including Pact Blade): +1 attack
Holy Symbol: Property - Does not need to be wielded in hand.
Totem: Property - Brutal

Superior implements could come up at level 6, 16 and 26, and improve one two three of the properties.
So at Level 6, you could either get +5 range, +1 attack or +1 damage
At Level 16 you could choose two from this list.
At Level 21, you could choose three from this list.

I like the modifier idea, instead of running around and rewriting everything (generating who knows what side effects), you now have adjustments to what you already have.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I like the modifier idea, instead of running around and rewriting everything (generating who knows what side effects), you now have adjustments to what you already have.

Though note: This would still cause some discrepancies. The 3d6 vs 2d10 example for example mentioned earlier still applies here. Similar damage as base, but 3d6+3 will be more than 2d10+2.

But I don't think that's really game-breaking.