Implications of Reincarnation...

[jefgorbach]

Personally I don't seen such a group becoming very large nor lasting beyond a few attempts because although RAW allows for such a possibility, such usage of the spell would likely be seen as purposely violating the Natural Order/Cycle of Life by other druid groves which would quickly act to end such heresy once known...presuming the gods/incarnates/etc have not already reacted first in a similar manner.

 

[Aeolius]

So if this hierarchy, which believes in reincarnation, keeps reincarnating themselves, at the cost of 1 level, how many Druids would be running around a world in which such an organization has been around for a few centuries? A thousand years? 3 thousand years?

I don't see that as being entirely implausible, given that Neptune Grass inspired me to devise a dryad who was nearly 100,000 years old. Her disciples have also harnessed the power of the sea grass to maintain themselves as necropolitans, eternal guardians of a region they may never leave.

As for reincarnation in D&D, I have always considered a bit of time displacement to be the optimal solution. Imagine when a soul is the recipient of a Reincarnation spell that it travels back in time to seed itself at the moment of conception within a new mother. The new child is born and is raised according to it's custom, existing momentarily at the same time as the original recipient of the spell. When the spell is complete, the new form has an awakening or quickening of sorts, where it assimilates the knowledge of the first form into itself, becoming a composite intellect.

 

[steeldragons]

The organization has the foundation as set forth by 1-2e, i.e. as one increases in level/power there are fewer druids at the "top". The 13 MOST powerful druids of the world constitute the "governing body" of the organization, "the Grove."

The Grove oversees various sacred sites and the security/maintenance of places of natural power...usually through the assignation of middling to high level druids assigned to those sites, called "Keepers."

I should clarify (myself, haha). As far as I have "figured this out", one does not become a "Keeper" before 7th level. And just being 7th level or higher does not guarantee the Grove will make one a Keeper (i.e. PC druids need not be tied to a particular area for the rest of their lives. All members of the organization have a role to play...and some [PCs] are assigned/do roam the realms to be able to gather information and patrol the risings and fallings of evil and good and law and chaos).

The members of the Grove are all over 10th level...if I had to stat them out, I'd even say they are probably all 13th or better. I think the original term was Hierophant (sp?).

There is one Grove member for each of the original sacred trees of druidism (a Lord or Lady of Ash, Lord or Lady of Birch, Rowan, etc...). But that does not mean that there are only 1 of that level druid or two druids within the Grove could not be the same level.

Yes, once you get above 7th level there are fewer and fewer. But that is more of a fact of how I have high level classed individuals set up in the world. Above 7th level, there are fewer wizards, fewer "great lords [fighters] and high priests, etc.

A druid who wishes to take a place within "the Grove" must usurp another through a battle of abilities (spells, shapeshifting, etc...Exhibit their surpremacy in their understanding of and union with the Balance, basically.) The defeated druid is not, necessarily, nor must be slain...simply defeated.

The "Kill 'em take their place" thing for high level druids in 1e doesn't really exist. The only druid that there is ONE [level] of is the Lord/Lady (currently, it is a Lord ) of Oaks.

It should be noted that I have not yet had a PC druid actually achieve such a level. So it's purely always been an NPC/fluff/story element thing.

Insofar as I have had to use this in actual play...well, I haven't....so I have given no thought or concern to the idea that there are or could be very high level druids floating around who are not in the Grove.

But, just because they are a worldwide organization does not mean there are large numbers of druids greater than 7th or 8th level floating around.

I suppose, if I had to make a story reason, 10th or higher level druids who are not in the Grove simply are not on the Orean (physical/Prime) plane. They spend their time expanding their consciousnesses. Spend a few decades as a tree or a badger or cloud or whatever, visiting/experiencing/assuming the form of beings and creatures on the other planes of existence with which the druids are concerned (the elemental planes, basically), "communing with nature" (in some kind of solitary trance, hermit lifestyle, or some such), etc...

So, again, in my world druids are not really out for personal power or worldly "achievement" in a fashion that they would want to be reincarnated repeatedly through magical means.

S'all about growing the soul...expanding the consciousness...ya feel that, man. <snaps fingers and hugs a tree>

--SD

 

[Glade Riven]

An abuse of reincarnation in my campaign setting would be difficult, as any type of resurrection requires a deal with the entity known as the Arbiter. He's less of a traditional D&D style deity (he doesn't grant any powers to worshipers) and more of a personification of fate and eternal judgement. When a person dies, the gods come to him to stake their claims on souls.

 

[Treebore]

Yeah, my opening question was asked under the assumption everyone follows the Core Book rules. I did not expect people to be so willing to deviate so much and in such cool sounding ways.

So to answer my question in the way I WAS expecting, you would have to use a version of Reincarnate by the book for 3E D&D, or as written in 1E or 2E. So for a base line let me paste the 3E version:


Reincarnate
Transmutation
Level: Drd 4
Components: V, S, M, DF
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Touch
Target: Dead creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

With this spell, you bring back a dead creature in another body, provided that its death occurred no more than one week before the casting of the spell and the subject’s soul is free and willing to return. If the subject’s soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work; therefore, a subject that wants to return receives no saving throw.
d% Incarnation Str Dex Con
01 Bugbear +4 +2 +2
02-13 Dwarf +0 +0 +2
14-25 Elf +0 +2 -2
26 Gnoll +4 +0 +2
27-38 Gnome -2 +0 +2
39-42 Goblin -2 +2 +0
43-52 Half-elf +0 +0 +0
53-62 Half-orc +2 +0 +0
63-74 Halfling -2 +2 +0
75-89 Human +0 +0 +0
90-93 Kobold -4 +2 -2
94 Lizardfolk +2 +0 +2
95-98 Orc +4 +0 +0
99 Troglodyte +0 -2 +4
100 Other ? ? ?

Since the dead creature is returning in a new body, all physical ills and afflictions are repaired. The condition of the remains is not a factor. So long as some small portion of the creature’s body still exists, it can be reincarnated, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature’s body at the time of death. The magic of the spell creates an entirely new young adult body for the soul to inhabit from the natural elements at hand. This process takes 1 hour to complete. When the body is ready, the subject is reincarnated.

A reincarnated creature recalls the majority of its former life and form. It retains any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks it formerly possessed. Its class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points are unchanged. Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate the subject’s racial adjustments (since it is no longer of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores. The subject’s level (or Hit Dice) is reduced by 1. If the subject was 1st level, its new Constitution score is reduced by 2. (If this reduction would put its Con at 0 or lower, it can’t be reincarnated). This level/HD loss or Constitution loss cannot be repaired by any means.

It’s possible for the change in the subject’s ability scores to make it difficult for it to pursue its previous character class. If this is the case, the subject is well advised to become a multiclass character.

For a humanoid creature, the new incarnation is determined using the following table. For nonhumanoid creatures, a similar table of creatures of the same type should be created.

A creature that has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can’t be returned to life by this spell. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can’t be reincarnated. The spell cannot bring back a creature who has died of old age.

The reincarnated creature gains all abilities associated with its new form, including forms of movement and speeds, natural armor, natural attacks, extraordinary abilities, and the like, but it doesn’t automatically speak the language of the new form.

A wish or a miracle spell can restore a reincarnated character to his or her original form.
Material Component

Rare oils and unguents worth a total of least 1,000 gp, spread over the remains.

 

[Voadam]

I like the 1e magic-user version.

 

[amerigoV]

1) DM should have fun with tons of legal questions.
(reincarnated dude) "Okay, I'm back. Lets have my stuff"
(party rogue) "What, who the hell are you?"
(reincarnated dude) "I am Sir DiesAlot! My +1 Plate and Sword, if you do not mind."
(party rogue) "Weren't you taller?" (looking at a gnome instead of a human)"
(reincarnated dude) "I was reincarnated into this more ....compact form"
(party rogue) "Right...."


2) The only time it happened in my campaign, I had a greater doppleganger that had replaced the area's druid. The party had done him a great service in casting Gentle Repose, so the brain was nice and fresh. A perfect moment to insert the doppleganger into the party.

 

[LurkAway]

Treebore, your thread (combined with the Eclipse Phase thread), inspired me to develop this idea