Implications of Reincarnation...

[Treebore]

First off, I am talking about this far more in the context of pre 3E than D&D since 3E, but it has some obvious carry over, so it does definitely apply to 3E and Pathfinder as well. I don't remember if it is in 4E, so let me know if it does, I'm not pulling out my 4E books to check.

Anyways, how far have you taken the implications of Reincarnation in your games? Essentially, for the cost of 1 level, you are reborn, nice and young, in a completely new body.

Sure, you might come back as an animal, but so what?

In 2E and 1E Druids have a hierarchy. Going up to 15th level in 1E, and 23rd or so in 2E. 3E and presumably 4E can have similar hierarchies as well.

So if this hierarchy, which believes in reincarnation, keeps reincarnating themselves, at the cost of 1 level, how many Druids would be running around a world in which such an organization has been around for a few centuries? A thousand years? 3 thousand years? What would their levels be like with multiple lives so possible? How powerful would their organizations truly be?

How far have any of you gone with this? Are there any settings out there with this explored?

I would think this has been discussed before, so anyone who is a master of the search functions, please, link them.

 

[Stormonu]

To me, the reincarnation spell steps outside of the "normal" bounds of reincarnation, insomuch as the returned is an adult and presents themselves, previous memories intact, to the spellcaster.

In most cases, I'm guessing that normal reincarnation is allowed to occur, where upon death, the individual is reborn and likely never recalls their past - allowing them the chance to do better this time around without the burden of their past failures (and sadly, knowledge of their past glories as well). This spell would be used for those times when the natural order needs to be circumvented for some reason - the individual held some special knowledge that wasn't passed on, left a vital task unfinished, etc.

That said, I could see this being "perverted" by an order of druids who wanted to remain in power, but they'd have to get past the fact they 1) have to die and 2) trust in the fact that their possible replacement is willing to bring them back (a reluctance to give up power often filters down the chain of command...).

Otherwise, you could have something like the Airbender series, where the "defenders of nature" are reborn by being called back from death to pick up their old jobs once again. However, someone could get very tired of this after many ages of being brought back to defend the realm "once again".

-----
As an aside, the elves of my campaign world go through reincarnation when they grow weary of their current life and journey to the elf lands of Aurora (wheras most other races pass on an afterlife). They can come back as an elf or any other flora or fauna of the natural world (they couldn't come back as, say, an orc or a human); when that form dies, it returns to the elf lands, and can again go forth once again when the elf-spirit is ready. This rejuvenation allows them to face the world anew with new vigor and wonder. The druidic orders of other races (primarily human*) have learned of this ability and how to manipulate it to their favor.

Druidus, the first human druid and for which druids took their name in my campaign world, attempted to manipulate his return via reincarnation so that he could rule his order forever. For his crimes against the natural order, he was locked away within a earthen mound in chains that keep him imprisoned and alive, no matter how old he becomes, so that he cannot use his knowledge to become ever-powerful once again.

Other druids use reincarnation with great trepidation, fearing giving a sort of immortality to someone who cannot deal with the consequences it brings. Were a druidic order begin using reincarnation with frequency, they would likely face their own death, or suffer the fate of Druidus himself.

* Generally speaking, in my campaign world, only a human could be termed a "druid". Most other races would simply be a sort of shaman with most of the same abilities, but a wholly different outlook and association with nature.

 

[Dice4Hire]

It would be interesting to make a world that worked off of reincarnation.

I had an oriental-themed world that had reincarnation, but as there was a wait before being reborn as a baby, it was mostly unimportant for the players, though some threads did work off it.

As for an order of Druids doing this, the odds of a serious change to non-human is a rpetty serious drawback, and even the chance to be reborn an animal of some kind.

Sure you could suicide again and again with the odds of a system shock roll totally killing you, and losing a level each time. I cannot see it being a viable strategy for a cabal of druids ruling forever.

It is an interesting idea with a group of Deva characters, though, who can pull this off pretty easily.

 

[jonesy]

To me, the reincarnation spell steps outside of the "normal" bounds of reincarnation, insomuch as the returned is an adult and presents themselves, previous memories intact, to the spellcaster.

I actually don't think the D&D spell counts as reincarnation. It's more like reconstruction of the mind that was, together with construction of a whole new body.

In one campaign setting I had reincarnation be two different spells. One would bring a dead mind back into existance as a kind of soflty glowing energy orb which could move slowly, communicate in whispers, and very little else. And the other would construct a body into which the orb could take residence. You could always tell who had been brought back, because the head of the person would still glow like the orb. There were different levels for the body construction spell, and the most powerful ones could fly and shatter walls with their punches. Only a select few in the setting could do those.

Oh, and there weren't any who could actually do both spells. You needed two high level casters to pull it off.

 

[Treebore]

Interesting. I am so used to seeing people be so "by the book" its refreshing to see that gamers will still look at something and say "I don't like how they did that." and do their own thing. Awesome!

For those of you who did variant types of reincarnation, such as the two different spells and the other which sounds like a series of spells, do you have write ups you can share?

 

[jonesy]

If I can find them. It was like five or six years ago.

 

[howandwhy99]

Anyways, how far have you taken the implications of Reincarnation in your games? Essentially, for the cost of 1 level, you are reborn, nice and young, in a completely new body.

The druids are a major power in my game, but I don't extrapolate reincarnation as you do. I think most people believe in reincarnation as one's spirit being reborn into the world in another body as an infant. This is a huge drawback and bonus. For one, you get to potentially live forever, but you never lose your experience. On the other hand the rest of the party keeps campaigning while you grow up. With a long-lived race this could be a century or more... well past the length of the game for most other PCs as their campaign is limited by natural death and aging.

In D&D reincarnation has typically meant coming back as a living creature with all of the abilities one had, say their class abilities and mental scores, but in a different body. It could be the same race, but the body is still significantly different. What I do is bring characters back without level loss, the same as resurrection, but the new body (minus some of the brain configuration) is not your past one. This new body is by ratio aged to the degree the last was, so the aging and death do not stop being in effect. Retaining human-like mental abilities also means bodies like a badger are like awakened badgers. It's a huge limitation for tool use and other common PC powers, but PCs may still opt to play it. This gets into playable PC races though.

Sure, you might come back as an animal, but so what?

By common reincarnation standards then you come back as an animal with animal intelligence and so on. That may not be desired. Also, see above about how too disparate a PC from the human norm makes engaging with the environment more or less difficult and possibly pushing the challenge of the game outside of the sweet spot. IOW, most people aren't looking to be sea slugs.

So if this hierarchy, which believes in reincarnation, keeps reincarnating themselves, at the cost of 1 level, how many Druids would be running around a world in which such an organization has been around for a few centuries? A thousand years? 3 thousand years?

Plenty of Druids are around, but they don't have extended lifespans except by reincarnation, randomly, into a long-lived race. As it's a race-specific class they stop being druids if not reincarnated as human (or half-human if half-races like half-elf are treated as such).

What would their levels be like with multiple lives so possible?

As normal for me, but their levels are curtailed at the high end of a standard campaign anyways given their class advancement is supernatural and works within a hierarchy. Other power gain is definitely still possible outside of class ability, but in class druidism is curtailed similar to monks and assassins. (Also like some other classes equipment limits are assessed too, i.e. metal)

How powerful would their organizations truly be?

Druids are probably the most powerful organization in the prime material plane, but then that's their religion's plane of control. The trick is they're true neutral, so they are really simply maintaining balance more than anything.

Think of the game Risk. In a 2-player game a 3rd army is placed every turn when troops are initially placed on the board. First me, then you, then the neutrals. In Risk the neutrals do not attack, but do hold ground. For Druids they align a portion of their force to whichever of the two other alignments (Law or Chaos) is currently weaker. They seek balance and therefore neutrality rather than too much law or too much chaos. In Risk the 3rd army never gains troops for occupying territory or for any other reason. They pretty much only decline. Druids do grow neutral elements, fill in empty spaces, and bolster themselves.

How far have any of you gone with this? Are there any settings out there with this explored?

Well, the Known World, Mystara, Greyhawk, and lots of D&D settings include druids. Everlasting druids of massive number and level? I don't know of any settings. You should try it and tell us what you think.

EDIT:
As I mentioned above, I've only taken reincarnation so far as to include some of its common elements, but not all. This is to allow a standard length campaign and to bring players back into one when they opt for reincarnation.

 

[steeldragons]

My game world has a large druidic organization, world wide (and the most ancient organization/religion still existing in the game world).

Their core belief in maintaining "the Balance" of the natural energies and state of the world gives them little to no impetus to become involved in the "momentary" and thoroughly transient political and worldly battles and powers of what they refer to as "the realms of Men." So, as an organization, gaining such power and commanding other sapients doesn't really, other than in a few extreme "legendary" circumstances, influence their actions.

The organization has the foundation as set forth by 1-2e, i.e. as one increases in level/power there are fewer druids at the "top". The 13 MOST powerful druids of the world constitute the "governing body" of the organization, "the Grove."

The Grove oversees various sacred sites and the security/maintenance of places of natural power...usually through the assignation of middling to high level druids assigned to those sites, called "Keepers."

The most powerful druid in the world is the undisputed head of the organization, the Lord of Oaks, for whom all other druids serve as an informational network, filtered through the Grove who act as a advisory council for the Lord of Oaks. The Lord of Oaks is viewed as having been reincarnated innumerable times and is really in the physical world as their "last go 'round", if you like.

Reincarnation is certainly one of the order's primary beliefs and it is an unarguable fact that one becomes reincarnated, through the millenia, until their understanding of the Balance and the natural energies of the universe is complete. The embodiment of this "perfect understanding/unison" is the Lord of Oaks, who then is able to retire/become one with the Balance and/or may opt to be reincarnated again...just for fun, I guess.

Druids are souls believed to have already gone through enough incarnations (as trees, rocks, streams, animals, etc..) to be reincarnated as sapient beings again, inevitably drawn to become druids again and increase their rank through the organization until all will eventually become a Lord (or Lady) of Oaks and then move on from the world.

The development and growth of their shapeshifting ability is meant to allow the druid to experience the world through the eyes of the creatures they can become (and eventually plants and various elemental states they achieve as they rise in level). Through those experiences, the druid is believed to achieve a much greater understanding of the world and the Balance, which they retain without the need for (and in addition to) personal reincarnation.

So, as such, the spell Reincarnation is kind of seen as a bit of "cheating" or "jumping the gun" as the being retains their mental state and abilities...which "normal/natural" reincarnation [usually] does not.

A druid would opt to, indeed accepts as fact that they will be, reincarnated "naturally" in the course of the normal cycle of life/through the Balance.

In certain cases it would be, I suppose, acceptable or necessary...seen as the will of the universe/Balance in that particular druid's ascension.

For non-druids, magically imposed/chosen Reincarnation would be viewed as a very large stepping stone to that soul moving toward being able to become a druid (or a reminder that they had been and perhaps lost their "way"?) and eventually ascend beyond the physical world/cycle.

So that would be viewed as a "good" thing by the druid organization...but it is certainly not something that is forced upon the mass population...or imposed on themselves as some sort of "power grab."All souls achieve their unison in the Balance in their own time...nd that time may easily take multiple thousands of years..."Time" is viewed rather differently by druids than other beings/religions.

I must say with all of that philosophical fluff in place, since I'm now thinking about it, I have never had a player desire to have their PC Reincarnated as opposed to "Raised" or "Ressurected." So, how it would really work in my world's play...I can't be too sure.

But as an instrument to increase the organizational or personal power of a particular druid is not something that would be acted upon or even conceived by most druids and would definitely NOT be condoned by the Grove or Lord/Lady of Oaks.

GREAT topic/thread though! I love this stuff!

Have fun and happy "coming back as a fish or something"
--Steel Dragons

 

[Plane Sailing]

Plenty of Druids are around, but they don't have extended lifespans except by reincarnation, randomly, into a long-lived race. As it's a race-specific class they stop being druids if not reincarnated as human (or half-human if half-races like half-elf are treated as such).

this is his main point though. It isn't about belief, it is the fact that whenever Druids get old a buddy can reincarnate them into a new body with memories intact but a whole new lifespan ahead of them. As long as mayflies stay off the list it gives a wonderful opportunity to create an eternal oligarchy!

 

[Gilladian]

I run an e6 campaign. So spells "top out" at 3rd level. I have decided, however, that 4th level spells CAN be cast as a group activity. It takes two casters of 6th level, and 3 more casters of 2nd level (total of 16 caster levels) or some combination of other casters to reach the 16 caster level minimum.

I have not yet decided if I will ever allow 5th or higher level spells - probably only if I felt that it was "story critical" for an NPC or such.

Thus, a single druid is never going to be able to cast resurrection. However, the philosophical status is interesting... I've always assumed there were a set number of souls available in my campaign setting (I can't remember WHY I decided this, years ago, but I did). So souls are already constantly reborn, slowly moving closer to pure good/evil and law/chaos as they "evolve". Reincarnation is simply pushing the growth a little faster, or sidestepping it a bit...