Impressions on 3.5?

I'm generally pro-3.5 (obviously, since I'm the obsessive-compulsive maintaining a list of the changes).

I think there were some aspects of 3.0 that really needed tightening up (rangers & bards), the errata needed to be added, and a lot of areas could have benefitted from greater consistency.

So far, I've been pretty happy with the changes we've discovered (it helps that many are right in line with some of my existing house rules). There are a few I'm uncertain about, but I'm willing to take a look at the entire package before deciding on implementing new house rules. I'd prefer to play teh rules as written first and given them a chance, instead of making knee-jerk decisions based on incomplete info.

Mechanical revisions aside, it sournds like just the reformatting and reorganization of the books make the revision worth while -- the new DMG contents really sound promising.
 

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Re: re

Celtavian said:
Some things I don't like that stand out:

1. Ranger's getting Hide in Plain Sight. This will only be in wilderness areas if it stays in at all. I have always pictured the ranger as a man of skill with some knowledge of nature magic, and Hide in Plain Sight doesn't fit them IMO.

2. Damage Reduction #/Magic. They have not clarified whether they will be incorporating a weapon + as they had before. Protection from Arrows will be quite useless at higher levels if it is 10/magic. I don't like spells that don't scale well.

3. Power Attack change seems a little insane. Two times damge for 1 point of base attack for two-handers. Two-handed weapon users already outclass just about everyone for damage. Did they really need this upgrade? Even my players are surprised.

4. Not altering the Quicken Spell feat so that is useable by pre-epic Sorcerer's.

5. Hold spells. I don't think I am going to use the new hold spells. I have seen Greater Command work. Multiple saves make it to easy to break a spell because you are bound to get a lucky roll. I see no problem expecting the cleric to have Remove Paralysis memorized.

1. This is fine with me if it's wilderness only.
2. Agree
3. I think I agree, but I'm willing to give this one a try.
4. Agree
5. Agree. Plus, I think the save every round will actually make the Hold spells more lethal, not less.

Some things I like that stand out:

1. Change to damage reduction. Now players will actually have to be prepared to deal with certain creatures.

2. Change to Paladin. They needed more smites per day.

3. Change to druid animal companion. It needed some clarity. It was getting out of hand at higher levels.

4. Change to buff spells. I never liked all day stat enhancements.

5. Change to Disintegrate. The spell was too good for its level at killing. Now it still does a good job of destroying materials, while being a less effective killing spell.

1. Disagree. I think the new DR rules are a horrible idea. They'll just mean an increase in bookkeeping as players cart around a dozen different weapons. Also, if the PCs run into a creature whose DR they can't bypass, dual-wielders and finesse fighters are screwed. Dual-wielders were weak enough already, these rules will cripple them even more. I definitely won't be using these rules.
2. Agree
3. Agree
4. Disagree. The shorter duration will turn them into NPC-only spells. Another change I won't be using.
5. Not sure about this one. This is another change that benefits the PCs enemies more than the PCs. On the other hand, wizards ending a fight with one spell was a valid concern. I'm undecided about this so far.

Other things:

1. All the changes in spell names to "Greater" whatever. This just seems a little silly to me. Are 1/4 the spells in 3.5 going to be under the G's?

2. Nerfing spell focus. At +1 DC it's just a crap feat. WotC let things get too out of hand - they put out too many PrCs for cheesy min-maxers to use to crank their DCs to astronomical levels. But to fix this, they made a change that won't just affect the cheesy min-maxers - it'll affect lots of non min-maxers who play wizards too. Bad idea.

I'm going to keep the +2 and +4 DCs from SF and GSF. If DCs get too outrageous, I'll just nerf or exclude some of the PrC ablilties.

3. Changing GMW to +1 every 4 levels. Good change IMO, I think it was too powerful before.

4. Bow and arrow plusses not stacking anymore. Another bad idea IMO. This seems to be another case of things getting too out of hand in PrCs and supplements and nerfing core rules to make up for it. I think I'll toss this rule too, and if archer damage gets too high, I'll nerf the PrCs. Archers are already going to be hurt considerably by the new DR rules.

Overall, my impression of 3.5 is very negative and I won't be buying the books. And another thing - why do we keep calling it 3.5? This really is 4th edition - it's arguable that there were fewer changes from 1e to 2e than they're making in this revision.
 

Yea, Henry!

Henry said:
A thought struck me this morning (ouch!) and frankly, I don't know why it never occurred sooner:

For all the complaints and concern about the length of time between editions that have occurred, people don't seem to be taking into account the POWERFUL effect that the internet has on playtesting and on revision of existing rules.

In the 1970's, it took years for the consensus of the gaming community to filter back to a company, assuming the company was listening in the first place.

In the 1980's, the advent of BBS's helped people share their interests and their optional rules, but the internet still was not a user-friendly place to be.

Even still in the early 90's, a company did not have many means to ascertain the direct pulse of a community built around their products. The advent of AOL, GEnie, Compuserve, and the internet galvanized who communities of gamers, and showed people the beginnings of instant feedback. For better or for worse, just as computer programs now have amazingly short development times between revisions, RPG designers have harnessed the ability of a community to determine :):):):) from Shinola in rapid time.

It still takes a long time to discern between valid complaints and suggestions, and loud-mouthed grousing, but think about the fact that when someone comments that the Grappling Rules are cumbersome and have errors, that the DESIGNER of said grappling rules is likely listening right as it's being said! At what point in prior history has a designer of a product been able to listen to hundreds of thousands of feedback almost immediately after releasing their product?

The fact that money is a concern is not a question to me. But the idea that a revision is "too soon" is using the turnaround cycles of a non-internet age as a point of comparison to a new era in customer satisfaction and feedback.

On ENWorld, we have some posters who get outraged when a complaint is not answered in 3 hours or less; how much more instantaneous are the demands from a game designer on new or revised product?

BINGO!

Here all we are, taking the privilege and power of internet communication for granted... Our society is becoming more obsessed with speed and fast gratification! We want everything "yesterday"--and have the gall to demand things of our fellow human beings greater than a human can accomplish, because communication technology of the last 8 years is actually exceeding the average human capacity to cope with the pace of new information.

How much time in front of a computer, and presumably on the internet, do we spend just trying to keep up with, emails, chats, and discussions (all the while trying to sift through priorities and interests)? And how much of that time spent was really worth it? I'm 40. 10 years ago, when the internet was still an obscure academic/geek thing and cell phones were just a business fad, life was less complicated, and the business world did quite well with the technology at the time!

The IT rage was sold to us as "convenient", "efficient", even "environmentally friendly" (LOL, what a lie that was! Have you seen the reems of paper the average PC disgorges in a typical office? Or the hundreds of millions of old PCs and cellphones piled in huge mountainous dumps?). I think we've been sold a lot of "BS"! And I see a whole generation of youth who of nothing but this paradigm! A paradigm where patience, class, manners, and mutual respect are sacrificed for expendient gratification.

We are spoiled by the technology we currently enjoy--if solar activity were to shutdown the internet for, say 3 months (just the summer months), would we know what to do with our lives anymore? Imagine no working computers nor internet nor cell phones for three months... If you cannot, then you know sucked in by technology you've become! I will wager, that in spite of frustration of not being to communicate as quickly, and anonymously, as we do now, those 3 months would be a genuine revelation! (I experienced such a thing when I stopped having cable TV--I was reduced to 3 local channels via antenna. At first it was a shock, but very quickly I recovered alot of my personal time; and that afforded me the opportunity to become a DM:) )

I imagine 3 months of no computers would significantly lower the rate of obesity, a genuine epidemic in North America. (Enough on NA consumer eating behaviours; I could write a scathing tome on it!)

I like RPG's because it is a social thing (meeting other humans face-to-face), a table top event (usually), and requires "brains"! In constrast, while I've gotten sucked into hours of PC gaming, emailing, and chatting, I can honestly say 90% of it was a waste of my time--I am not a better person because of the technology of today. (A more stressed person, but not a better human being for all the time and $ spent!) I mean, how much information on the internet, even at a site like this one, do we actually retain and use to our advantage?

It's such a double edged sword too: think of all the new friendships and contacts the IT age has permitted to flourish? :)

*sigh* Too much chaff, not enough wheat, eh?

The internet has certainly ramped up the pace of technological change, and that in turn has affected our society. The only thing that can't really change is the nature of the human animal and the built-in limitations (thought processing, learning, vocalization, listening, feeling, sensitivities, personal experiences, and meaning of life...)

All that said, and I had to get something out of my system ;), I think that the utility and efficacy of 3.5 over 3.0 will dictate 3.5's success. Was it too soon? I think the older one is, the more likely one is to say "yes". A 15 year old gamer will see 3 years as "friggin' forever"; a 35 year gamer will percieve 3 years as "only yesterday". Am I "correct"? :p :)

-W.
 

Re: Re: re

Grog said:
And another thing - why do we keep calling it 3.5? This really is 4th edition - it's arguable that there were fewer changes from 1e to 2e than they're making in this revision.

I would be very interested in seeing that arguement.
 

Re: Yea, Henry!

Winterthorn said:


I think the older one is, the more likely one is to say "yes". A 15 year old gamer will see 3 years as "friggin' forever"; a 35 year gamer will percieve 3 years as "only yesterday". Am I "correct"? :p :)

-W.

I think so, yes.
 

KDLadage said:
#1 -- I understand this change now. Took a while, but I get it. Given that there are no facings in the game, having rectagular spaces for creatures create a sort of psuedo-facing issues that are corrected by making all of the creatures take a square area. Personally, I would have liked to have had facing added to the game, rather than square areas for creatures to eliminate the psuedo-facing issues. But I think I am in the vast minority on that one.

I agree completely. This is the only change that I have really significantly revised my opinion of. At first I thought it was really stupid. But once I got the idea of how this ties up the no-facing thing, I actually started to really like it.
 

coyote6 said:
I like most of the changes I've seen.

But the ones I don't like have been excessively annoying for whatever reason; I think it's that they strike me as overreactions (e.g., the buff spell duration nerfs, Power Attack) or unneeded & seemingly arbitrary (e.g., some spell list alterations).

And my cynical side expects that in 3 or 4 years, when the next revision comes out, those overchanges will be partially reversed (and my really cynical side expects that other changes will be made that will have to be partially reversed in the next revision, circa 2009; fortunately, that about exhausts my cynical side).

Back! Back, cynical side! Back!

PS: WotC making money is good. WotC changing the game just to make money is not good ("not good" is, of course, not necessarily the same as "evil" or "bad"). There are other ways to continue making money on a game besides creating new rulesets (just to spike sales) every few years. WotC doesn't have to give in to the Dark Side; the gaming hobby already has Games Workshop, after all. ;)

Well said. I, myself, would go all the way and just call them Evil.
 

Tom Cashel said:
Funny how it's being billed as "by Monte Cook" when he had nothing to do with it (beyond writing the original material).

:confused: I imagine that, given that Monte wrote the original material, this has something to do with the copyright and plagiarism laws.
 

Re: Re: Re: re

BryonD said:


I would be very interested in seeing that arguement.

Well, what changed from 1e to 2e, as far as core rules go? To-hit tables were replaced with THACO, nonweapon proficiencies were added, some spells were changed (fireball and lightning bolt were capped at 10 dice)... Dragons were powered up. What else changed? It's been a while.
 

Re: Re: Re: Re: re

Grog said:


Well, what changed from 1e to 2e, as far as core rules go? To-hit tables were replaced with THACO, nonweapon proficiencies were added, some spells were changed (fireball and lightning bolt were capped at 10 dice)... Dragons were powered up. What else changed? It's been a while.

Don't forget eliminating certain races and classes, and renaming whole categories of monsters to be politically correct.

In comparision, I see 3.5 as a much more minor revision. I'm not sure 2E really qualified as a new edition, but I certainly don't think 3.5 does. I see 3.5 more along the lines of the revisions of the Basic D&D rulebooks -- some things changed, but the revisions were still recognizable as being the previous material.
 

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