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Impromptu Stream with Ed Greenwood, Tim Kask, & TSR CCO

Dire Bare

Legend
I was going to post, at least we now know that Michael is real, but . . . . he's just a disembodied voice throughout the video (at least as far as I could tell, as I skipped around a lot). I'm still not sure he's real . . . .
After reading Michael's post stating he didn't come into the video until 1:19, I realized I was confusing him with the video's host, the Inexorable WordNerd. Michael isn't a disembodied voice in the video, that's the WordNerd. Sorry about that.

But . . . it didn't take long before BOTH Michael and the WordNerd pissed me off. WordNerd complains about how folks are now overly concerned about other's life choices, when we didn't used to be . . . . then Michael suggests that the awful messages tweeted by TSR 3.0 could have the result of being hacked by Russian trolls essentially . . . . only to backtrack and blame Gygax's and LaNasa's tweets on some nameless employee who was "ghostwriting" for them, and now no longer works for TSR . . . which is complete and utter crap.

Michael, how about the transphobic comments Ernie uttered on live video, that started this whole mess? Maybe you address it later in the video, but I couldn't stomach the whole thing.

Ugh. Everytime I dip my toe in this TSR mess, it just makes me angry and feel like I've taken a bath in filth.

Definitely disappointed in Kask and Greenwood for blithely listening in to this crap. Even if one or both of them weren't fully aware of what's been going on.

Post again when TSR 3.0 has actually released some product. Not that I'm expecting anything of value.
 

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Parmandur

Book-Friend
After reading Michael's post stating he didn't come into the video until 1:19, I realized I was confusing him with the video's host, the Inexorable WordNerd. Michael isn't a disembodied voice in the video, that's the WordNerd. Sorry about that.

But . . . it didn't take long before BOTH Michael and the WordNerd pissed me off. WordNerd complains about how folks are now overly concerned about other's life choices, when we didn't used to be . . . . then Michael suggests that the awful messages tweeted by TSR 3.0 could have the result of being hacked by Russian trolls essentially . . . . only to backtrack and blame Gygax's and LaNasa's tweets on some nameless employee who was "ghostwriting" for them, and now no longer works for TSR . . . which is complete and utter crap.

Michael, how about the transphobic comments Ernie uttered on live video, that started this whole mess? Maybe you address it later in the video, but I couldn't stomach the whole thing.

Ugh. Everytime I dip my toe in this TSR mess, it just makes me angry and feel like I've taken a bath in filth.

Definitely disappointed in Kask and Greenwood for blithely listening in to this crap. Even if one or both of them weren't fully aware of what's been going on.

Post again when TSR 3.0 has actually released some product. Not that I'm expecting anything of value.
In the alchemical mix of angering, funny, and sad this whole saga has been, this is tending more towards sad now.
 

AcererakTriple6

Autistic DM (he/him)
Michael, how about the transphobic comments Ernie uttered on live video, that started this whole mess? Maybe you address it later in the video, but I couldn't stomach the whole thing.
I've brought that up 3 times already. They just shrugged it off and referred to Ernie Gygax's "apology" (which was a non-apology, and more of a "forget what was said and buy my nonexistent product").
 

MGibster

Legend
However words and phrases like "Woke mob" and "Those people" are dead giveaways. I'd think Ed and Tim would have known better.
A lot of people have a hard time vetting information from online sources. This is partly because it's all too easy where within a few clicks the algorithm will put you in a nice little bubble and it isn't always easy to break out. In 2020 I was listening to some Warhammer 40 lore/news videos on YouTube when I started seeing a bunch of videos show up in my feed from people complaining about SJWs, people who unironically referred to others as "soy boys," and complained that the woke brigade was ruining everything (including from some Youtuber who was banned from Magic tournaments because he was a jerk). And I finally figure it out when I listened to one of my lore videos and the guy was complaining because Games Workshop released a work of fiction featuring a black Ultramarine on the cover. Facebook's algorithm just figured I must like that sort of thing and kept linking similar videos to it.

I don't mean to suggest here that people aren't responsible for for what they say or believe. But with all those videos appearing in my feed I could certainly see how easy it would have been for me to descend into a rabbit hole. It's certainly happened to other people.

And for a lot of us older people, and I'm not as old as others, the internet still doesn't feel real. I think Dave Chappell recently said something like, "I don't care about Twitter you know why? Because Twitter's not a real place!" And I have to admit that I see where he's coming from. A lot of the nonsense I see online isn't something I see in the real world.
 

And for a lot of us older people, and I'm not as old as others, the internet still doesn't feel real. I think Dave Chappell recently said something like, "I don't care about Twitter you know why? Because Twitter's not a real place!" And I have to admit that I see where he's coming from. A lot of the nonsense I see online isn't something I see in the real world.
Dave Chappell doesn't need the internet. I imagine TSR does. Would a bank loan them 50k to print a book?
 

billd91

Hobbit on Quest (he/him)
But . . . it didn't take long before BOTH Michael and the WordNerd pissed me off. WordNerd complains about how folks are now overly concerned about other's life choices, when we didn't used to be . . . .
.
Didn’t used to be? How convenient to be able to forget when governments used ban birth control, non-missionary position sex, mixed-race marriages, homosexuality, membership in the Communist Party, and a whole host of behavior that didn’t conform to conservative, WASPy society.
 

AcererakTriple6

Autistic DM (he/him)
Didn’t used to be? How convenient to be able to forget when governments used ban birth control, non-missionary position sex, mixed-race marriages, homosexuality, membership in the Communist Party, and a whole host of behavior that didn’t conform to conservative, WASPy society.
I've often found that when people talk about the "good old days", they're so tinted by the glass of nostalgia that they're reliving a fantasy that never existed.
 
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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
However words and phrases like "Woke mob" and "Those people" are dead giveaways. I'd think Ed and Tim would have known better.

I haven't watched the video - if those words weren't used in direct conversation with them (like, if they were used in the description of the video, or by hosts before they entered the video) don't assume they knew about the presence of those phrases.
 

I haven't watched the video - if those words weren't used in direct conversation with them (like, if they were used in the description of the video, or by hosts before they entered the video) don't assume they knew about the presence of those phrases.
Kask used the phrase Woke Mob himself in a FB post, which was shared on the screen for a good part of the discussion. The moderator not only used those phrases but droned on and on about them. Greenwood and Kask both took issue to the changes in dnd races, and the implication that there was ever anything problematic about them, which is probably a take that most dnd fans share, but they were explicitly positioned as victims over and over.
 

billd91

Hobbit on Quest (he/him)
Kask used the phrase Woke Mob himself in a FB post, which was shared on the screen for a good part of the discussion. The moderator not only used those phrases but droned on and on about them. Greenwood and Kask both took issue to the changes in dnd races, and the implication that there was ever anything problematic about them, which is probably a take that most dnd fans share, but they were explicitly positioned as victims over and over.
Even on the left you see people shaking their heads and rolling their eyes at the "woke Olympics". The difference is it's complaining about some of the extremism and/or slacktivism while operating generally on the same side of the political spectrum. So I wouldn't read too much into Kask using the term.
 

MGibster

Legend
Kask used the phrase Woke Mob himself in a FB post, which was shared on the screen for a good part of the discussion. The moderator not only used those phrases but droned on and on about them. Greenwood and Kask both took issue to the changes in dnd races, and the implication that there was ever anything problematic about them, which is probably a take that most dnd fans share, but they were explicitly positioned as victims over and over.
There's nothing wrong with taking issue to the changes WotC made to races in D&D. While I don't feel compelled to rail against the changes, that ship has sailed and nothing I say will change the direction, I don't particularly like the changes. Nor do I always agree with those who say something is problematic. And I can see why Kask and Greenwood might feel as though they're the victims here. Modern audiences are interpreting their work in a way that few people interpreted it forty years ago.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
And I can see why Kask and Greenwood might feel as though they're the victims here.

I have an image in my head of them visiting with the families of those who are on the business end of transphobia and racism - say, the families of those who have been brutalized for being what they are - and explaining how they, the old white guys who write games, feel they are the victims here.

If they feel they are the victims, they have rather missed the point.
 

billd91

Hobbit on Quest (he/him)
I have an image in my head of them visiting with the families of those who are on the business end of transphobia and racism - say, the families of those who have been brutalized for being what they are - and explaining how they, the old white guys who write games, feel they are the victims here.

If they feel they are the victims, they have rather missed the point.
What you're exhibiting here, Umbran, is an attitude that collateral damage doesn't really matter. It's not like Kask and Greenwood are some kind of cackling conspirators fighting to uphold structures of cis-heteronormative racism. They just get swept up in the broad, rhetorical brushes because of what they are or for not being far more forward thinking than pretty much anybody could be expected to be 30-40 years ago.

Of course their victimhood isn't as significant as someone who's been on the business end of racism and transphobia. Do you think they're claiming it is? Or do you think the negative feelings they have about being swept up in all of this are invalid? It's possible to have due sympathies in multiple areas of this topic.
 

Marc_C

Solitary Role Playing
Some aspects of D&D (AD&D) have been problematic since the start. As a 15 year old in 1981 I could see that. We discusses these issues back then. These issues have been discussed for ever on forums and more recently on social media. These guys have known this for a very long time, decades.
 

MGibster

Legend
I have an image in my head of them visiting with the families of those who are on the business end of transphobia and racism - say, the families of those who have been brutalized for being what they are - and explaining how they, the old white guys who write games, feel they are the victims here.
Empathy isn’t a zero sum game and it’s not always useful to think of this in terms of who the real victim is. We can recognize a situation sucks for party A while simultaneously recognizing it’s much, much worse for party B.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
What you're exhibiting here, Umbran, is an attitude that collateral damage doesn't really matter.

Don't generalize my position, please. We are talking about Kask and Greenwood, specifically. What collateral damage are we talking about here? Can we name any meaningful damage either of these men has taken from the "woke mob" before this video came out? Thinking yourself a victim is sketchy when you have not actually suffered any real harm.

It's not like Kask and Greenwood are some kind of cackling conspirators fighting to uphold structures of cis-heteronormative racism.

No, but then I didn't suggest they were, so I find that a pretty big strawman.

They just get swept up in the broad, rhetorical brushes because of what they are or for not being far more forward thinking than pretty much anybody could be expected to be 30-40 years ago.

So, with respect, I have seen no sign prior to this that they've gotten "swept up" with anything. Greenwood has faced some entirely legitimate criticism for some aspects of his works that were less than great even when they were written. I've not seen anything much bad said about Kask prior to now. I mean, neither one of them has been terribly relevant for long time, but that was just natural slipping into irrelevance that happens to most authors over time.

From what I see, they are now perhaps sweeping themselves up in things, choosing to vocally join in on a side that they historically haven't been part of - indeed, Greenwood has somewhat defended LGBTQ+ representation before, when there was some controversy around one of the Baldur's Gate games.


Of course their victimhood isn't as significant as someone who's been on the business end of racism and transphobia. Do you think they're claiming it is?

No. I have seen no evidence that they have actually been victims, though. They were made largely irrelevant to the gaming community by time, not by the "woke mob".

Or do you think the negative feelings they have about being swept up in all of this are invalid?

I don't know that they have, "negative feelings about being swept up". I've seen no quotes from them specifying that. I am not going to spend three hours watching a video to find them, when I'm not the one asserting that they have those feelings.

It's possible to have due sympathies in multiple areas of this topic.

I find a fundamental inconsistency with claiming multiple, complex, nuanced sympathies for yourself, while labeling others as, "the woke mob," and blaming them for your problems.
 


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