Improved Haste

[Forrester]

You seem to be under the misconception that it takes longer to do a full-round action than it does to take a standard action.

The target would get EITHER:

1) An extra standard action, OR
2) An extra full-round action.

He would not get an extra standard action AND an extra move-equivalent.

Because, standard action + MEA does not = full-round action.

 

[Cloudgatherer]

I don't think the spell is really worth taking at 7th level. Maybe 5th or 6th would be better. The gain here over haste is really nominal except in the cases I noted above.

 

[trentonjoe]

You seem to be under the misconception that it takes longer to do a full-round action than it does to take a standard action.

The target would get EITHER:

1) An extra standard action, OR
2) An extra full-round action.

He would not get an extra standard action AND an extra move-equivalent.

Because, standard action + MEA does not = full-round action.

There is a difference between a standard action and full round action.

A standard action is one attack (or a long list of other things on page 128); along with this you can take a MOE in one round.

A Full round action (or all your attacks) is all you can do (see page 128 again) you cannot move or do anything else. You may only do the full round action and take a 5' step.

I do not think a standard +MOE = a full round action I think it equals what you can do in a full round.

I don't normally argue symantics ( or spell it) but it matters for this spell.

 

[Al]

I think 6th is fine. Mass Haste is 6th, and this is clearly not more powerful than that.

 

[Forrester]

There is a difference between a standard action and full round action.

A standard action is one attack (or a long list of other things on page 128); along with this you can take a MOE in one round.

A Full round action (or all your attacks) is all you can do (see page 128 again) you cannot move or do anything else. You may only do the full round action and take a 5' step.

I do not think a standard +MOE = a full round action I think it equals what you can do in a full round.

I don't normally argue symantics ( or spell it) but it matters for this spell.

But a person doesn't get a standard action + a MEA each round. They get a standard action, which *includes* a move or MEA.

I think you might be confusing standard action with a partial action. Admittedly, the PHB is confusing in some parts -- in some cases it says that casting a spell is a standard action, when they really mean that you can cast a spell as the action-part of your standard action, and then move before it or after it.


To sum up:

Normal person gets:
1) a Standard action (usually equivalent to a partial action + a move), OR
2) a full-round attack.

Hasted person gets:
1) A standard action (usually equivalent to a partial action + a move) AND a bonus partial action, OR
2) A full-round attack and a bonus partial action.

An Improved Hasted person gets:
1) A standard action (. . . ) AND another standard action, OR
2) A standard action (. . . ) AND a full-round attack, OR
3) Two full-round attacks.


Make sense?

 

[Ruvion]

I think bumping it down to level 5 or 6 is not such a good idea, as this spell seriously (as pointed out by Cloudgatherer) beefs up the fighting classes. It is in essence a more flexible version of the Blessed of Grumsh's power to double his attacks (I think it was called roaring something)...

 

[trentonjoe]

But a person doesn't get a standard action + a MEA each round. They get a standard action, which *includes* a move or MEA.

I think you might be confusing standard action with a partial action. Admittedly, the PHB is confusing in some parts -- in some cases it says that casting a spell is a standard action, when they really mean that you can cast a spell as the action-part of your standard action, and then move before it or after it.


To sum up:

Normal person gets:
1) a Standard action (usually equivalent to a partial action + a move), OR
2) a full-round attack.

Hasted person gets:
1) A standard action (usually equivalent to a partial action + a move) AND a bonus partial action, OR
2) A full-round attack and a bonus partial action.

An Improved Hasted person gets:
1) A standard action (. . . ) AND another standard action, OR
2) A standard action (. . . ) AND a full-round attack, OR
3) Two full-round attacks.


Make sense?

Okay- I think we are on the same page know. I was using the chart defination of standard and you are using the glossary defination. YOurs certainly makes more sense in this situation.


Now back to the balance and spell level. What's the best 6th, 7th, and 8th level combat spell?

Chain Lightning is what comes to mind for 6 ( I've never actually cast a 7th level spell so I don't now those answers). I would say Improved Haste is at least if not better than Chain Lightning so it has to be 7th or higher.

 

[rhammer2]

It sould be a Sor/Wiz 6. The Bard should not have access to it as a lower level spell.

Now don't go screaming "munchkin" until you've read the spell....

Improved Haste
Transmutation
Level: Brd 6, Sor/Wiz 7

As haste except the subject takes an extra standard action or full round action each round instead of an extra partial action.


Now haste is only a 3rd level spell (admittedly powerful for its level). I've doubled the level (little more for Sor/Wiz) and changed the partial action to a standard action. This makes it possible to use two full round actions.

Now, is it really so bad for a 7th level Wizard spell or 6th level bard spell? The most abusive offensive tactic is that this spell benefits fighter types over spellcasters (two full round attack actions). It may also benefit sorcerers as they could apply two metamagic feats instead of just one per round. Then again, they are burning a 7th level spell to essentially do this in a single battle (and it can still be countered by slow or dispelled).

Thoughts?

[Edit: Added "or full round action"]

 

[Shadeus]

One thing you didn't post was its duration. One round per level like haste, I presume?

This spell, when cast on a fighter, could allow them their full compliment of attacks.....twice....in one round on some poor guy and if it lasts a round a level, it will stay around for the entire combat. It actually doesn't do too much for spell casters, unless you are casting a full-round spell. It's almost like a time stop. Its not THAT powerful, but is tettering close to it.

I would suggest having its duration be one round/two levels and make it 7th-level. I still think its a bit powerful though. Fear the rogue that gets this and gets off 8 sneak attacks before you can say "don't shoot!"

 

[Victim]

Okay- I think we are on the same page know. I was using the chart defination of standard and you are using the glossary defination. YOurs certainly makes more sense in this situation.


Now back to the balance and spell level. What's the best 6th, 7th, and 8th level combat spell?

Chain Lightning is what comes to mind for 6 ( I've never actually cast a 7th level spell so I don't now those answers). I would say Improved Haste is at least if not better than Chain Lightning so it has to be 7th or higher.

I would say that Mass Haste is better than Chain Lightning, and more comparable to this spell. Mass Haste will generally give a group 4 extra actions each round. Wiz: Mass Haste + ?, Cleric: ?+?, Fighter: partial charge + full attack, Rogue: tumble, attack, full attack. If cast quick enough, it rules for the first round, allowing the melees to close and still take a full attack. Improved Haste gives the most benefits to fighter types. Haste already gives them a strong ability, the big first attack at full bonuses. IH will give them their secondary attacks at decreasing bonuses. It's still really good.

However, I don't think it's any better than Mass Hasting everyone, and will be less effective in large groups. If every wants to melee (pretty crazy), then casting mass haste gives 4 exrta attacks to the 4 man group, and more to a larger one. Improved haste would give 4 extra attacks to a high level fighter, and more likely less. These attacks are also coming at iterative penalties too. It'd be most useful in small to medium size groups with one kick ass fighter.