Improved Toughness

Cybern · Jan 27, 2004

Maybe this one came up before - and I'm sorry if it did - but I've just returned to D&D Gaming. Can you get the Improved Toughness Feat multiple times, as the Toughness Feat? If yes, then maybe I'll try a HP Machine...

Arigato!

Epametheus · Jan 27, 2004

Cybern said:
Maybe this one came up before - and I'm sorry if it did - but I've just returned to D&D Gaming. Can you get the Improved Toughness Feat multiple times, as the Toughness Feat? If yes, then maybe I'll try a HP Machine...

Arigato!

My normal inclination is that anyone who takes multiple toughness feats for one character should be shot.

Granted, this might be because the only player I know IRL who actually does that is a complete idiot, and his HP Machine gets the stuffing kicked out of him anyways. Whe I hear Toughness, I associate it with that one player, so sorry about the digression.

To answer the question, if Improved Toughness is the "+1 HP per level" feat, then my answer is "I hope not," because effectively gaining +2 Con every time you take a feat is a bit too strong. If it just gives a straight number to HP, then you should be able to take it repeatedly.

Scion · Jan 27, 2004

Nearly every campaign I've been in has actually changed just regular toughness into something akin to improved toughness.. for a long time now

I had one character who was a gnome necromancer who's goal in life was to get as many hp as possible so that he could buff up his familiar to use it in combat..lol

So I see no problem with it stacking personally

But in all likelyhood the rules say that you cant. Really though, it has to be one of the least abusive things to do. Would most characters rather have a few extra hp or a completely new combat option? or improveing one they already use?

Crothian · Jan 27, 2004

No, you can't take it more then once.

Eltern · Jan 27, 2004

I, along with other groups, had made Toughness into what Improved Toughness is, and allowed it to be taken multiple times. Out of the 11 players who have been affected by the rule in the past 1.75 years, I -might- have one thinking about taking it. He finally figured out Combat Brute will be pretty useless in the Banewarrens, but other wise he would take that, hands down. Even a saving throw uping feat is almost more appealing than taking Imp Toughness -twice-.

Eltern

borc killer · Jan 27, 2004

Cybern said:
Maybe this one came up before - and I'm sorry if it did - but I've just returned to D&D Gaming. Can you get the Improved Toughness Feat multiple times, as the Toughness Feat? If yes, then maybe I'll try a HP Machine...

Arigato!

You can't take feats more than once unless the feat says you can. I dont have that book in front of me but as i recall it does not say you can so you can't take it more than once... but if it does talk about it then sure.

Borc Killer

Darklone · Jan 27, 2004

Beginning of Feats chapter. You can only take feats more than once if it's specifically mentioned.

MichaelH · Jan 27, 2004

By the RAW you can only take Improved Toughness once. FWIW, I have house ruled all the variant toughness feats from MotW (dwarf, giant, and dragon's toughness) into the Toughness feat. So if you take the Toughness feat in my game, you get +3, +6, +9, or +12 hit points based on what your base Fortitude save is at the time (+0, +5, +8, +11 respectively).

drdevoid · Jan 27, 2004

MichaelH said:
FWIW, I have house ruled all the variant toughness feats from MotW (dwarf, giant, and dragon's toughness) into the Toughness feat. . .

Are you saying that your House Rule scales the feat on it's own or that it has more value depending upon when it's taken (for a single classed warrior, divine caster or monk that ends up being 6th, 12th and 18th level respectively)?

If the former is true that mechanic seems a little odd to just give 6 more hit points 5 levels (or even 1 level) after having granted 3.

I suppose a similar tweak would be to have a chain of xHP per HD improved toughness style feats using the MotW prereqs and not allow it to be taken multiple times.

It ends up granting substantially more HPs (a total of 80) but taking 4 feats in a chain is supposed to give a character something really impressive. 80 extra HPs is something a 20th level Barbarian gets automatically when Mighty Raging and with Extra Rage/Extended Rage (or high Con) ends up essentially always having. A really defensive Tank Fighter build should always be a better meatshield than a Barbarian.

It would also be easy enough to move around the prereqs and go with 2 or 3 in the chain. I'm not sure how one would name it, though:

-improved/greater/superior/perfect
-improved/iron/mithral/adamantine
-improved/greater/quintessential/essential
-improved/iconic/titanic/draconic
-improved/impressive/improbable/impossible
-improved/congenialty/runner-up/best-in-show

I wish WotC'd either get consistent with the naming devices or wax Gygaxian every time. (Hope I didn't Hijack the thread too much there. Many apologies if so)

James McMurray · Jan 27, 2004

A really defensive Tank Fighter build should always be a better meatshield than a Barbarian.

Two comments on this statement:

1) Why?
2) They will be because although the barbarian will have more HP, his AC will be lower duee to raging and lighter armor. Thus his extra HP only manage to offset the power atack damage he takes in comparison to the fighter.