Improved Trip master?

[Zaruthustran]

What with all the talk about the power of Improved Trip (thanks to "stand from prone" provoking AoO), what's the best tripper build? Assume 28 point buy, PHB races, level 6, no help from friends.

Taking into account trip-check/str-check enhancers like Enlarge Person and Bull's Strength, I'm thinking a cleric with Strength domain is the best tripper. But maybe a sorcerer (against a target already hit with Ray of Enfeeblement) is better.

Could a Bard make a good tripper? They get a lot of use out of the high Int required for Combat Expertise, and they get free proficiency with whip--which lets them trip without fear of counter attack (if it's successful).

-z

 

[mmu1]

What with all the talk about the power of Improved Trip (thanks to "stand from prone" provoking AoO), what's the best tripper build? Assume 28 point buy, PHB races, level 6, no help from friends.

Taking into account trip-check/str-check enhancers like Enlarge Person and Bull's Strength, I'm thinking a cleric with Strength domain is the best tripper. But maybe a sorcerer (against a target already hit with Ray of Enfeeblement) is better.

Could a Bard make a good tripper? They get a lot of use out of the high Int required for Combat Expertise, and they get free proficiency with whip--which lets them trip without fear of counter attack (if it's successful).

-z

The best tripper is going to be one with Combat Reflexes, a reach weapon (Spike Chain works nicely), and Improved Trip - potentially, under 3.5 rules he can get two attacks against someone before they even get to him (one following a trip, one more when the enemy gets up).

I think a Dwarven Fighter would work well in that capacity - you get +2 to Con so you can spend more points on Dex and Int, and that +4 stability bonus helps to make sure you're not going to get counter-tripped or forced to drop your weapon.

 

[FrankTrollman]

Heck no. It's a Druid with Expertise, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes, and Improved Unarmed Strike. Transform into a Riding Dog, cast GMF on yourself, and go to town. In two more levels you'll be a Dire Wolf instead and have a strength of 25 and two attacks per round.

That's a bewildering example of killing. You bite someone and then immediately get an Improved Trip that has no possibility of failure - if your trip succeeds you get an immediate attack with your bite which in turn starts an improved trip attack - and so on.

Wolf Form + Improved Trip = unlimited recursive attack loop.

I'm fairly positive that that is the best Trip Build.

-Frank

 

[Thanee]

Well... allowing trip attacks on already tripped opponents doesn't seem right.

Bye
Thanee

 

[mmu1]

Heck no. It's a Druid with Expertise, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes, and Improved Unarmed Strike. Transform into a Riding Dog, cast GMF on yourself, and go to town. In two more levels you'll be a Dire Wolf instead and have a strength of 25 and two attacks per round.

That's a bewildering example of killing. You bite someone and then immediately get an Improved Trip that has no possibility of failure - if your trip succeeds you get an immediate attack with your bite which in turn starts an improved trip attack - and so on.

Wolf Form + Improved Trip = unlimited recursive attack loop.

I'm fairly positive that that is the best Trip Build.

-Frank

Right. Now all you need is a DM who had a stroke and is actually going to allow that absurd bit of rule-lawyering.

 

[Grog]

Can you trip someone as an AoO when they're standing up (or any other time they provoke an AoO, for that matter)?

 

[Thanee]

About standing up, I guess no (more precise: well you can, but it wouldn't make a difference), as the AoO comes before the action is resolved I think.

But in general you can use any type of attack action as an AoO.

Bye
Thanee

 

[FrankTrollman]

Being Prone does not actually prevent you from being tripped. Otherwise people could voluntarily fall as part of readied attacks in response to Improved Trip attempts to keep you from getting your attack from Improved Trip.

Similarly, being temporarily blind (say, from a Glitterdust spell) does not prevent you from becoming blind from a (permanent) Blindness spell.

If you have a condition, whether it is prone, asleep, or blind - you can still be given that condition a second time - and while it probably won't make much difference by itself (except sometimes with duration), any secondary effects of the application of the condition also apply.

So for example: being blind does not actually make you immune to Glitterdust - and thus being invisible and blind does not keep you from having your position highlighted with the glitterdust - nor can you escape the brunt of the spell by voluntarily closing your eyes during the round in which it is cast. Further, being prone does not actually prevent a trip attack form going to completion nor can you stop someone from getting their extra attack from Improved Trip by interupting the action and voluntarily dropping to the ground.

That's how it has always worked. Of course, Improved Trip should not give you an unlimited number of bonus attacks when applied to wolves - but that is how it's written. Even with an arbitrary limit of 1 extra attack per normal attack - it's still extremely powerful. Probably too powerful in most games.

-Frank

 

[reapersaurus]

You kill me, Frank.

Tell me - do you actually believe that a Wolf's Trip ability SHOULD trigger on the free follow-up attack from Improved Trip, or are you just pointing out an interesting-sounding combination which hasn't explicitly been pointed out as not working within the rules?

I sure hope it's the latter, because I'd laugh VERY hard if anyone actually suggested that a Wolf's Trip and Improved Trip should result in an infinite loop.

BTW: I don't see what about the Improved Trip has "no possibility of failure"? It's just a normal Trip, and as long as you roll low, and they roll high, you'd have to have an unstoppable STR bonus to always win.
The Improved Trip WOULD result in ONE follow-up Bite attack, but it would stop there, no passing Go.

 

[gfunk]

Being Prone does not actually prevent you from being tripped.