Improved Trip master?

[FrankTrollman]

Tell me - do you actually believe that a Wolf's Trip ability SHOULD trigger on the free follow-up attack from Improved Trip, or are you just pointing out an interesting-sounding combination which hasn't explicitly been pointed out as not working within the rules?

Do you actually read what I say or do you just make insulting comments and hope they happen to catch on something?

Of course, Improved Trip should not give you an unlimited number of bonus attacks when applied to wolves - but that is how it's written.

I thought it was pretty clear what my position on it was. Poor wording in the rules, and that things should work the way they were written. Still, this is a rules forum, and thus what the rules actually say is what we should say that they say - anything less would be dishonest. As to how they should be played - that's a seperate discussion.

Real rules = Wolves with Improved Trip have a theoretically infinite number of bite attacks.

Best Rules = Wolves with Improved Trip get ONE extra attack.

People can't make intelligent decisions on what the rules should be until they understand what the rules actually say.

I don't see what about the Improved Trip has "no possibility of failure"?

Typographical error: should say "no chance of backfiring".

-Frank

 

[Snipehunt]

Whether you can trip as the AoO drawn for standing from prone is a debatable question, although I favor yes under the "your trying to stand as you are tripped, have used your move action in the attempt, and then fail if you're tripped" theory.

However, even I draw the line at allowing a trip attack to have any effect on somebody who is simply prone. Under trip attack, success means "you trip the defender." "Being tripped" means simly that "[a] tripped character is prone." If you succeed in making your trip attack against a prone person, you haven't "tripped a person in melee combat," which is what triggers the extra attack from improved trip. That person is already prone, and so is not "tripped" by your trip attack. You just wasted a real attack on trying to trip somebody who's already prone. (THis is another reason I think you can trip on AoO provoking by standing, but that's just me.)

As for the druid build, that works OK, just like any strength build. I'd still put my money on the dwarf cleric.

Keep in mind, though, you can only trip somboedy w/in one size category (I think they figure otherwise you'll just be grabbing them in a slavering maw or something). So, that large dire wolf can't trip a halfling. Plus, you can't drop a weapon if you're countertripped (no, it's not automatic). Worse, you still don't have reach, which is the main benefit of the trip fighter (thanks to whoever thought up the spiked chain).

Note that tripping with a weapon doesn't change the size limit, per the rules. An oddity, IMO - like an ogre wielding a spiked chain couldn't trip Bilbo.

 

[Snipehunt]

Being Prone does not actually prevent you from being tripped. Otherwise people could voluntarily fall as part of readied attacks in response to Improved Trip attempts to keep you from getting your attack from Improved Trip.-Frank

Why wouldn't you allow that? IF somebody wants to blow a readied action on falling prone if tripped, I'd let them have the minor benefit of not getting the second attack. IMO, the rules require that result.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Keep in mind, though, you can only trip somboedy w/in one size category (I think they figure otherwise you'll just be grabbing them in a slavering maw or something). So, that large dire wolf can't trip a halfling.

"You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller."

-Hyp.

 

[FrankTrollman]

Why wouldn't you allow that? IF somebody wants to blow a readied action on falling prone if tripped, I'd let them have the minor benefit of not getting the second attack. IMO, the rules require that result.

Because the same reasoning would allow people to protect themselves from Cause Blindness by closing their eyes.

-Frank

 

[gfunk]

Because the same reasoning would allow people to protect themselves from Cause Blindness by closing their eyes.

-Frank

The lack of logic in this statement is stunning. Obviously, Blindness permanently removes your vision, regardless of whether or not your eyes are closed.

However, dropping prone is precisely the purpose of Tripping.

I guess nothing says hostile DM to a spike-chain wielding PC than a room full of prone monsters.

Frank, are you a Vulcan Lawyer?

 

[Diirk]

Improved Trip

From Improved Trip feat description: "If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt."

It seems pretty clear to me that if your tripping via being a wolf, you HAVE used your attack as a melee attack, and therefore don't get the attack from improved trip. You'd get the +4, but thats about all.

Also... why would you get 2 attacks/round as a dire wolf? iterative attacks don't apply to natural weapons, and dire wolves only get 1 natural attack (albeit, a good one)...

 

[FrankTrollman]

Also... why would you get 2 attacks/round as a dire wolf? iterative attacks don't apply to natural weapons, and dire wolves only get 1 natural attack (albeit, a good one)...

Depending upon which quote you believe in the PHB - you may be able to take your unarmed strikes (using your normal iterative attacks) and inflict the same damage and gain the same special advantages as one of your natural weapons. In fact, by a reading of one part of the rules you have to.

Now, the transformation rules in 3.5 are a total and unmitigated mess, but at least part of WotC believes that this is exactly how it is supposed to work - and this camp includes Skip Williams.

Personally, I do not think it should work like that - but it does have rules text and designer support.

-Frank

 

[Deset Gled]

You can make some really nice tripping builds off of the Psychic Warrior. They get a good number of bonus feats that will allow you access to the tripping chains, and have a number of great ways to buff themselves up. Prowess is a great power for someone who likes to take advantage of AoOs. If you can use The Mind's Eye, there's a power that increases your reach.

If you want to get cheesy, there are weapons in the A+EG that let you threaten 15'. You could also try combining Graft Weapon with the Extended Reach feat from Savage Species. If you combine all of these together, its possible to get a reach of 30' with a large creature. The hardest part, though, is finding a DM who would allow it.

 

[Snipehunt]

Because the same reasoning would allow people to protect themselves from Cause Blindness by closing their eyes.

-Frank

If someone wanted to ready an action to gouge out their eyes if Cause Blindness was cast on them, I'd let them avoid the effects of the spell. Nothing else is comparable to dropping prone to avoid a trip attack.

Good thing Hypersmurf always catches my misstatements of the rules. I nominate him for new sage!