Improved Trip Question

[dnabre]

I'm trying to understand why Improve Trip is different from the other Improved Combat Maneuver feats.

All except trip, give you +4 to the check and lets you avoid the AoO when starting the maneuver, but improved trip gives you additional bonus of getting that free attack in. All the feats have one feat requirement and one stat requirement, and of the maneuvers I hardly think that trip is notably weaker than the others.

Any insight?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Improved Trip does not remove the possibility of being counter-tripped.

 

[Shin Okada]

Actually, trip is one of the most unreliable special attack. For Disarm and Sunder, you use your attack bonus. Thus, a skilled fighter can easily use those attacks against inferior foes. And something which gives attack bonus, like True Strike spell, help you much. But a Trip needs an opposed ability check. Your BAB does not help. So even a 10th-level fighter is not sure if he can Trip common soldiers in good percentage. Also, Tripping a monster is often really hard. Your opponent may have multiple set of legs (+4), or large or larger in size (special size modifier), or cannot be tripped at all (you can't trip a snake)! Even dwarves have +4 bonus to resist being tripped. That's said. In my experience, even with improved Trip feat and new prone rule (standing up provoke an AoO), Tripping is not a trustworthy tactics for most PCs.

 

[dnabre]

Actually, trip is one of the most unreliable special attack. For Disarm and Sunder, you use your attack bonus. Thus, a skilled fighter can easily use those attacks against inferior foes. And something which gives attack bonus, like True Strike spell, help you much. But a Trip needs an opposed ability check. Your BAB does not help. So even a 10th-level fighter is not sure if he can Trip common soldiers in good percentage. Also, Tripping a monster is often really hard. Your opponent may have multiple set of legs (+4), or large or larger in size (special size modifier), or cannot be tripped at all (you can't trip a snake)! Even dwarves have +4 bonus to resist being tripped. That's said. In my experience, even with improved Trip feat and new prone rule (standing up provoke an AoO), Tripping is not a trustworthy tactics for most PCs.

Ah, exactly the sort of difference I was looking for, thanks.

I've recently started DM'ing 3.5 for the first time (most of my experience has been 2nd ed), and I'm still digging out rules every-time somebody does a special maneuver. Only seen trip used by Dire Wolves, and it was certainly helpful to them, but not extremely so.

 

[Taren Seeker]

Also Trip does not provoke an AOO to begin with, so they added something else to make it a little more attractive.

I've been playing a Trip fighter for a few years now in LG and it's not all it's cracked up to be. The chance of failure even on same sized creatures can be significant. Generally I only try it when trying to stop someone from escaping or if I am OK with the worst case scenario (ie: being prone myself). It's a nice option when appropriate tho. Also as you go up in level opponents generally go up in size, strength, or are flying, etc.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Also Trip does not provoke an AOO to begin with, so they added something else to make it a little more attractive.

Trip does provoke an AoO to begin with - unless you are using a tripping weapon.

 

[havoclad]

It's also not too difficult to create an overpowering trip machine.

As a 6th level character, I gained a +18 on the trip check.
+6 strength (goliath helps here)
+4 special size (goliath)
+4 improved trip
+4 wolf berserker

Throw in raging for extra effect if you want.

Having played the character for a while now, I don't think he is campaign breaking, but he does force the DM to make adjustments.

Having to roll 3 d20's to hit (touch attack, trip, bonus attack when opponent is tripped) also means that there is plenty of chance for missing even if the odds are highly in your favor.

 

[dnabre]

While we're on Improved Trip, any idea on why the wording on the attack is weird? The whole, you get an attack as if you hadn't used your attack for the trip attempt thing. Why word it like that, and not just a "make a free attack"?

 

[TheEvil]

It let's you know what modifiers apply. Granted, they could have said the same thing with 'make a free attack' with some more words...

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

While we're on Improved Trip, any idea on why the wording on the attack is weird? The whole, you get an attack as if you hadn't used your attack for the trip attempt thing. Why word it like that, and not just a "make a free attack"?

Because it's important.

There are other ways to get a trip attempt. Take, for instance, a wolf's Trip ability. If he takes Improved Trip, he *doesn't* get a free attack normally, because he didn't use his initial attack to make a trip attempt.