Improved Trip Question

[Hypersmurf]

"As normal for unarmed attacks" means that you provoke unless you have Improved Unarmed Strike.

Right - but it's because Improved Unarmed Strike doesn't actually remove the AoO for attacking with an unarmed strike. It removes the AoO for making an unarmed attack.

Which includes unarmed strikes, and also includes the unarmed attack used to Trip, which is not an unarmed strike.

The Weapon entry for Unarmed Strike does not unclude the "You can trip with this" text because it is already specifically stated to in the Trip entry...

No, it isn't. Trip uses an unarmed attack, but it doesn't use the weapon Unarmed Strike (since Unarmed Strike, as noted, does not include the "You can trip with this" text).

If you're using the weapon Longsword, you can't trip with it, and instead, your trip is an unarmed attack - provoking an AoO unless you have Imp Trip or IUS.

If you're using the weapon Unarmed Strike, you can't trip with it, and instead, your trip is an unarmed attack - provoking an AoO unless you have Imp Trip or IUS.

A monk can absolutely do this.

No, he can't. A monk can only attack with an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. Since unarmed strike cannot be used to trip (using, rather, the generic 'unarmed attack'), he can only trip as part of a flurry with a special monk weapon that can be used to trip - namely, the kama.

If unarmed strike were a weapon that could be used to trip, this would be different.

-Hyp.

 

[Taren Seeker]

OK I see what you're saying. IUS does prevent the AOO for tripping unarmed, but a trip attempt (or other melee touch attack) does not count as a monk weapon for flurrying.

The problem I have with this is that you are still using a monk weapon, your own body. A Trip attempt substitutes for a regular melee attack, and you are using a monk weapon for that attack. True, the reading of Flurry only says unarmed strikes, but I believe that's too narrow a reading. A Monk can use his entire body to make an Unarmed Strike. To me, if a Monk is attacking unarmed, he is using a Monk weapon.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

That's odd, here's what the PHB pg 141 and the Sovelior/Sage SRD says about trip:

Is that the 3.5 PHB you're checking?

Because in the 3.0 SRD I have access to:

Trip an opponent [Varies][AoO: No]

So, it looks like something that was changed between 3.0 and 3.5. The CMG version of the 3.5 SRD I have *also* says "Yes" for trip.

Trip isn't mentioned in any of the 3.5 Errata I can find. Ergo, I'll stay with the Wizards version of the SRD until we clear this up.

EDIT: Also, thanks for the clarification, Hyp. I missed the difference, there.

 

[Taren Seeker]

Yes, 3.5 PHB 1st Printing.

I believe the Sov SRD corrected some errors in the rtf SRD. The only error I've found in Sov is that Warmind BAB is listed at 3/4 when it's 1 for 1.

 

[Hypersmurf]

A Monk can use his entire body to make an Unarmed Strike. To me, if a Monk is attacking unarmed, he is using a Monk weapon.

If he's making an unarmed strike, he's using a monk weapon. If he's making an unarmed attack that isn't an unarmed strike, he isn't.

(Well, strictly, unarmed strike isn't a monk weapon - Flurry of Blows can use monk weapons or unarmed strikes, though.)

-Hyp.

 

[Taren Seeker]

If he's making an unarmed strike, he's using a monk weapon. If he's making an unarmed attack that isn't an unarmed strike, he isn't.

(Well, strictly, unarmed strike isn't a monk weapon - Flurry of Blows can use monk weapons or unarmed strikes, though.)

-Hyp.

I agree Hyp, you have the RAW correct. I just don't find it reasonable

Oh and it turns out I am using an old version of the Sov SRD. They've added D&DG info and corrected the Warmind BAB. I usually just download it and use it locally.

 

[Egres]

Improved Unarmed Strike does not help in the case of an unarmed trip attempt, because an unarmed strike is not a weapon which can be used to trip.

I disagree.

With the IUS feat you can make a normal unarmed touch attack that doesn't provoke any AoO due to tre tripping attempt:

From the SRD:

Making a Trip Attack: Make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as normal for unarmed attacks.

IMPROVED UNARMED STRIKE [GENERAL]

Benefit: You are considered to be armed even when unarmed —that is, you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from armed opponents when you attack them while unarmed. However, you still get an attack of opportunity against any opponent who makes an unarmed attack on you.

In addition, your unarmed strikes can deal lethal or nonlethal damage, at your option.

As you can see, it doesn't state anything regarding unarmed strikes.

Edit: note to self: read the entire thread before replying...Hyp is always around.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Yeah, Hyp got that one already.

In my head, I head IUS as reading, "when you attack with an unarmed strike."