Improved Trip Question

[Taren Seeker]

Trip does provoke an AoO to begin with - unless you are using a tripping weapon.

Not exactly. Trip as an action does not provoke. Attacking unarmed without natural weapons, improved unarmed strike or while holding the charge on a touch spell does provoke. The other Improved feats affect attack options which do provoke AOO's in and of themselves, therefore the benefit granted by Improved Trip wrt to denying AOO's is not worth as much as say, for Improved Grapple.

 

[dnabre]

*rereads trip entry in PHB*

Wow, if you use a weapon to trip there's no AoO.

Must be using this against my players *evil grin*.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Not exactly. Trip as an action does not provoke. Attacking unarmed without natural weapons, improved unarmed strike or while holding the charge on a touch spell does provoke.

Yes, exactly. A trip attempt, in and of itself, provokes an AoO.

Action Type Varies
Disarm7: Yes
Grapple7: Yes
Trip an opponent7: Yes

Making a Trip Attack: Make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as normal for unarmed attacks.

...

Avoiding Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Improved Trip feat, or if you are tripping with a weapon (see below), you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity for making a trip attack.

...

Tripping with a Weapon: Some weapons can be used to make trip attacks. In this case, you make a melee touch attack with the weapon instead of an unarmed melee touch attack, and you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity.

If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped.

Improved Unarmed Strike does not help in the case of an unarmed trip attempt, because an unarmed strike is not a weapon which can be used to trip.

Compare:

Strike, Unarmed: A Medium character deals 1d3 points of nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike. A Small character deals 1d2 points of nonlethal damage. A monk or any character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat can deal lethal or nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes, at her option. The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls.

An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike.

.......

Guisarme: A guisarme has reach. You can strike opponents 10 feet away with it, but you can’t use it against an adjacent foe.

You can also use it to make trip attacks. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the guisarme to avoid being tripped.

EDIT:

Similarly, this is why a monk cannot make trip attempts as part of a flurry of blows, unless he is using a kama (the only monk weapon in the SRD which can be used to trip).

 

[dnabre]

Tripping with a weapon does not provoke an AoO. It's quite clear in the PHB. I don't know how clear/accurate the SRD is on the matter though.

I'm pretty sure someone's unarmed attack (including a monk) with Improved Unarmed Strike counts as a weapon for that purpose (not 100% sure on the this bit).

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I'm pretty sure someone's unarmed attack (including a monk) with Improved Unarmed Strike counts as a weapon for that purpose (not 100% sure on the this bit).

It is a weapon. It is not a special tripping weapon - specifically note that, if you are being counter-tripped, you can't really drop it to avoid the countertrip!

 

[dnabre]

It is a weapon. It is not a special tripping weapon - specifically note that, if you are being counter-tripped, you can't really drop it to avoid the countertrip!

Sorry, missed that section section.

So you can't attack with unarmed attack as a weapon to trip, even if it's counted as a weapon. *stops head from spinning* Ok, I've think I've got it. Just weird rules.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

So you can't attack with unarmed attack as a weapon to trip, even if it's counted as a weapon. *stops head from spinning* Ok, I've think I've got it. Just weird rules.

Not all that weird - there are a number of weapons that have the special ability to be used as tripping weapons. Generally, these are special curvy weapon, chain weapons, and other weapons that are designed to hook around your opponents' ankles.

From the PHB, you've got: bolas, spiked chains, dire and normal flails, guisarmes, halberds, gnome hooked hammers, kamas, scythes, sickles, and whips (as well as any newer weapons in the expansion books).

Some of them even give bonuses on your trip attempts.

EDIT:

If you aren't using one of those weapons, you need to basically wrestle your opponent to the ground. Knowing how to do that well means you need to know aikido (for example). In D&D, aikido means "Improved Trip." It doesn't matter if you know karate (Improved Unarmed Strike) or not - you need aikido.

Similarly, just because you know karate doesn't mean you know judo (Improved Grapple).

 

[dnabre]

Not all that weird - there are a number of weapons that have the special ability to be used as tripping weapons. Generally, these are special curvy weapon, chain weapons, and other weapons that are designed to hook around your opponents' ankles.

From the PHB, you've got: bolas, spiked chains, dire and normal flails, guisarmes, halberds, gnome hooked hammers, kamas, scythes, sickles, and whips (as well as any newer weapons in the expansion books).

Some of them even give bonuses on your trip attempts.

Ok, weird writing of the rules.

You don't incur an AoO if you trip with a weapon (see below). Not you don't incur an AoO if you trip with a weapon designed for tripping.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Ok, weird writing of the rules.

You don't incur an AoO if you trip with a weapon (see below). Not you don't incur an AoO if you trip with a weapon designed for tripping.

Right - because you can't trip with a particular weapon at all if that weapon isn't designed for tripping.

 

[Taren Seeker]

Yes, exactly. A trip attempt, in and of itself, provokes an AoO.

That's odd, here's what the PHB pg 141 and the Sovelior/Sage SRD says about trip:

Action Type Varies Attack of
Opportunity1
Disarm7 Yes
Grapple7 Yes
Trip an opponent7 No
Use feat8 Varies

So no, not exactly.

Improved Unarmed Strike does not help in the case of an unarmed trip attempt, because an unarmed strike is not a weapon which can be used to trip.

Yes it does. You posted it in your own quote from the SRD:

Originally Posted by SRD, Combat Maneuvers, Trip
Making a Trip Attack: Make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as normal for unarmed attacks.

My add: PHB pg 159, first sentence of trip entry, and SRD:

TRIP
You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack.

"As normal for unarmed attacks" means that you provoke unless you have Improved Unarmed Strike.

SRD:
IMPROVED UNARMED STRIKE [GENERAL]
Benefit: You are considered to be armed even when unarmed —that is, you do not provoke attacks or opportunity from armed opponents when you attack them while unarmed.

The Weapon entry for Unarmed Strike does not unclude the "You can trip with this" text because it is already specifically stated to in the Trip entry, and IUS states in it's description that you do not provoke when attacking unarmed, which includes unarmed melee touch attacks.

Tripping with a Weapon: Some weapons can be used to make trip attacks. In this case, you make a melee touch attack with the weapon instead of an unarmed melee touch attack, and you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity.

Similarly, this is why a monk cannot make trip attempts as part of a flurry of blows, unless he is using a kama (the only monk weapon in the SRD which can be used to trip).

A monk can absolutely do this. Trip weapons are classified as such becasue they can hook or otherwise "grab" an opponent so that they can trip them up. You can hook someone just as well with your arm/leg (and not provoke an AOO if you have IUS).

BTW, anyone know how you can reply with nested quotes? It took me forever to answer this since all the quotes were cut from the previous post.